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Del,

I also want to welcome you to this forum. It is indeed a pleasure to read your posts.

Your brother Darrell, whom I have met twice on my visits to see my parents in Washington, is a real gentleman whose piano technology experiments have produced some fabulous results. In particular I was very enthusiastic about his vertical action, the best I've ever played. Close my eyes and it is not hard to imagine I'm playing a grand, and yes, I did find the ability to control dynamics on his upright quite astounding. He seems to have picked a couple very good designs and adapted them to his requirements. I also wish more people would open their minds and imaginations to the possibility that a good upright would more than meet their needs in a piano rather than buying the short grands that are widely available, but apparently many just wont.

Also, I have found that providing a few inches between a wall and the upright piano greatly enhances its projection. Most place their uprights right up against the wall and then wonder why they don't get as much sound.

Again, thank-you so much for participating in this forum.

Best,

David Burton

This thread is so huge that I am getting lost in it, but for the person who asked:

Why do I say that uprights are more likely to induce injury in advanced students?

My background is that I am a pianist and teacher and Feldenkrais practitioner, and much of my work is in enhancing technique and rehabilitating playing ability in pianists who are injured or who have technical frustrations.

I have observed, over many years, the tendency towards injury with uprights, (which is different from the postural change injury that sometimes comes from the change to a grand, and is due to the change in music rest height)

I think the reason is that on an upright piano, because the action is sprung, most of the resistance is at the top of the keystroke, so the pianist has to "brake" after overcoming the initial resistance in the key, in order to have the key going slowly enough to play really softly, and this causes tightness in the scm and trapezius muscles. On a grand, on the other hand, the action tends to offer more resistance as you go down the key, so the piano, and not the pianist, provides the resistance. I have seen this demonstrated with a weight placed on the key of a grand, and then an upright.

As I understand from talking to engineers about injury and keystrokes in general, there is a general principle that a mechanical system must have inhibition somewhere, and if it is not in the instrument, it will be in the player. I probably don't explain any of this very well, and use all the wrong words.

I am of course talking about the standard upright action. I know nothing about new inventions, except that there is an Australian upright piano maker who has developed a repetition lever for an upright. When I heard about it some years ago he was building pianos in Darwin, in Australia's tropical far north, for export into South East Asia.

Starmender, I am a technician, and while I'm uninformed as to injury potential, I do agree with you in principal. I have stated here many times that working against gravity (in a grand) and working against spring resistance (in an upright) are very different things and that grands win by a longshot to my way of thinking. This is why I will sometimes also state here that I would prefer even the smallest grand to most uprights, even though sometimes the upright may have a better tonal balance.

That said, I will still admit though that there are individual upright pianos I encounter now and again which somehow seem to transcend the objectionable feel even with all those springs, and I would not be resistant to owning one. I don't know what their formula is, but sometimes they are just very good despite it all.

Regards,

Rick Clark

Give me a Chinese grand of decent basic design, give me tech who knows what he is doing, and pay him to go completely through the piano, with instructions to make it "the best it can be".

This then becomes a real interesting question, because price points start to become similar between the entry level grand (that doesn't perform like one), and a pretty decent vertical.

-------------

I agree that most any grand piano can be made to sound quite nice under the hands of a really skilled technician. However, I have been in three piano factories in China and I would have serious questions about the longevity of anything coming out of any of them. The problems range from the quality of the various glue joints to the quality of the wood used to the way the wood used structurally is handled. Mostly how it is dried and conditioned. It's still a matter of getting what you pay for. There is a reason (aside from the cost of labor) why more expensive pianos are more expensive, be they verticals or grands.

Del

In my shopping experience I found nothing satisfactory in the small, inexpensive grands I tried.

The difference between an $8K little grand and my $8K Pleyel upright (as well as the similarly sized Baldwins, Schimmels and Shulze-Pollmans I played) was remarkable. The grands played like cheap toys, whereas the large uprights felt like instruments with expression and dynamic range. No, they weren't grands, but at that price range I felt there was no comparison. The action was different, of course, but didn't make up for the playability. (is that a word?)

In the meantime, I'm saving my $$ for a mid-level grand piano--which, in my mind, is somewhere in the $20-$25K range.

Nina

Jimbo wrote:
As a regular of the pianist's corner who has strayed afar into the deep woods of the piano forum, please indulge me. I realize the above was humor, nonetheless I feel compelled to address it lest someone really does get hurt.

I do not think the wrist and forearm require strength in the sense of brute force or mass (i.e. like body builders). Suppleness and flexibility is needed which will allow a greater amount of force to flow through them. I suppose this is a form of strength, but I just wanted to elaborate.

Thanks for obliging.

I’ve given quite a bit of thought and effort to the idea of the very small grand (VSG) piano, considering both their problems and their potential. By my definition the VSG market includes pianos in the 150 to 160 cm (4’ 11” to 5’ 3”) range. These pianos have been roundly condemned by piano tuners and technicians ever since Brambach made them affordable and popular back around 1920 or so. Highest on the list of dislikes has been their sound. Still people keep on buying them, their size and portability offering its own strong attraction regardless of what “industry experts” say about them. And regardless of how badly they are most often made to sound.

With this ongoing demand in mind it would seem that some enlightened manufacturer would once again make these things a specialty. There is no acoustical reason why — at least through most of its range — the VSG cannot sound just as musical as its larger siblings. True, the low bass will never equal that of a larger instrument, but there seems to be a good lot of folks out there for whom this is not a major consideration. A solid, well-defined musical tone can be maintained down to the first octave, give or take, and this is enough for many pianists.

To make the VSG sound its best a small amount of power will be sacrificed. The loss will be slight and it will be less a musical problem than a sales problem. In most piano showrooms the VSG is displayed out in the middle of the same gargantuan space that also swallows up the concert grand. Couple this with the all-to-frequent piano salesfolks who know of no other way to present a piano beyond banging really hard on the keys and loudly proclaiming the wonders of great clangorous power. It may also be a problem to the musician who has been taught to ignore his or her ears and attack the keys with a ferocity that would have destroyed any piano of Chopin’s day. As all may be, we’ll show them all and make up for the slight power loss by giving the piano a wonderful dynamic range.

The only limitation to the VSG action is the short key. The touchweight of the action is set up at the front of the key. With the shorter key there is a greater variation in touchweight (and finger travel) between the front of the key and the middle of back of the key. Unless the hammers are grossly oversize and overweight — as most are these days — this characteristic is one most pianists become accustomed to fairly quickly. With this exception there is no inherent reason why the VSG action cannot function just as well as it does in a larger piano.

Sadly, I know of no VSG on the market today coming anywhere close to this imagined level of performance. There are several that are reasonably well made, but they still lack a certain musicality. One reason for this, I think, is our perception of the market niche. Since the performance of the VSG has traditionally been, shall we say, less the exemplary, the manufacturer sees the potential customer for them only as a price shopper. And price shoppers, by definition, care nothing for performance. Only price. With looks being a distant second. They will buy the cheapest PSO (piano-shaped object) they can find at Costco. Obviously, there is no need to expend any effort to make these things perform as long as they are cute and shiny. And cheap. “Oh, does it make noise too? Hey, that’s great! The kids will love it!”

Building a high-performance VSG will raise the cost of the instrument somewhat above the Costco level. Over the years I’ve been working on the design for a pair of high-performance VSGs —150 cm and 160 cm in length. I’ve not priced them out — it’s unlikely they will ever be built, it’s been more an intellectual exercise than anything else. — but the Suggested Retail Price would probably fall in the $15K to $25K range. Depending on quantities. By contrast, there are any number of VSG PSOs available for less than $10K. I recently saw a splashy piano store advertisement offering fine, hand-crafted, heirloom-quality grand pianos for $4,998. Including delivery and tuning.

Del

Del,
Excuse my total ignorance of the field, but have you tried some of the emerging (re-emerging?) companies from central Europe such as Estonia? Or maybe from Poland or the Czech Republic? At best they have a desire for quality combined with low (relative to other countries) labor costs. If Estonia (just for example) can produce a quality 6' 3" piano for $20-25K and a 5' 8" for $15-20K, then shouldn't they be able to produce a VSG for somewhat less (I'm not too sure of their prices)? Maybe low enough to compete in the VSG market?

Even here, there could be some premium for sounding better - especially if supply is somewhat limited. There is a niche of VSG buyers who do care about sound (although I don't have a clue how big this niche might be). I personally know one VSG buyer who's a casual player - but did make their final purchase decision on sound rather than best price.

Del,

Thanks for your insights, nice to have more knowledge around here. I believe we have met, at least once, in the midst of Mr. Sauter, Mr. Finger & Mr. Able (couple years ago) in any case,

I am aware of you and your bothers' achievments and vision but I do have one question.

Now that you have spent so much time, science and energy working the upright into a grand equivalent, how much closer do the respective prices fall now?

Manitou - Pianist - Technician

Without naming names, yes, I have talked to several pianomakers about the subject. Some express the opinion that they are already producing excellent small pianos. Most have simply not been interested.

Yes, I do think there is a market for pianos of this type. Small, to be sure, but I think it's there.

Del

I'm not sure I quite understand the question. Piano manufacturing costs are more directly related to production quantities than to performance levels. But I would guess that, given roughly equal scale sizes and performance levels, the vertical will always be somewhat less costly to produce in the same quantities. Darrell's action was not inexpensive to assemble and install and that pushes up the cost of the vertical. But straight sides are always cheaper to make and finish than bent sides.

Del

Estonia produces already a highly regarded, musically very appealing 5'6 grand which doesn't exactly fall into the categories of "VSG"

If nothing else, it certainly has become recognized for its highly 'effient' musical output - PARTICULARLY considering its "size"!

And has found its way into some of the finest pianists' homes - BECAUSE of it!

Other European makers,especially the old German makers such as Sauter etc, also often produce an astoundingly full sound in their smaller grands.

Because they're long used to have to watch their step there.

And don't simply know that the European theatre is often more 'serious' in the acquisition of musical instruments based on age old tradition of music there.

But are also keenly aware that 'brother competition' is for ever on the look out for the possibly "the weakest link" in the other guys' instrumental line-up:

"PFUI - WAS FUER SCHEISSE...."

Subsequently few grands are manufactured there to simply please the modern living room baby-grand appeal of North America - nor would it be in their interest to make VSGs that would have to compete with their own [excellent] uprights!

After all, most of these makers are smart enough to avoid embarrassing themselves on their continents' showrooms there by displaying a grand that wouldn't be at least a notch above their own best UPRIGHTS!

And you don't play with your age old reputation for excellence by placing right besides one of your own monster-uprights a "Baby-grand" made for.......

..... "Babies"!!

norbert

Ok, you have the opinion from Aussie Land, now Idaho gets to weigh in.

I started playing (read that learning) about 6 years ago. I bought a Yamaha C2 grand for about
$16,000 (new). I had it for 3 years, sold it for about what I paid for it, and bought a used Kawai upright for $3,000, which I still have. The Yamaha had a better sound and feel, hands down, no argument, but you don't really need a Hummer to get the groceries in, either. For the money, the Kawai works just fine and produces a sound that is still better than my ability to hit the right keys. Grands sound better, but unless you can play well enough and can really afford the difference in price, a good upright is, to me, a good choice.

Ressurecting old thread because of just playing a big old upright. Leaving aside all the inherent differences between upright/grand, does anybody feels like me, more intimate with an upright because of the way the sound projects? I feel that with the upright the sound is more focused, like a beam, towards the player,and, thus the more connection feeling. The grand has indeed big expansive sound but its kind of everybody's sound not just yours . Am i makeing sense here?

Absolutely--I agree. And I'm saying that as someone who has a C2 and is happy with it. I think it's easy to lose sight of the fact that it's mostly the music that counts--not as much the instrument.

It makes no difference whether it makes sense to others. If that's what you hear, that's all that's important. If so, you've just potentially saved yourself a ton of money.

The sacrifice of a small amount of power would be welcome to my ears, especially if the loss were accompanied by a "wonderful dynamic range". In an attempt to get my 6' 2" grand to a comfortable listening level with room treatments, padded string blanket and the like, I have just about killed its dynamic range. I'd like to replace my piano with the one that Del describes, but sadly it seems to exist only on his drawing board. I wonder if there are uprights that are less loud while maintaining a meaningful dynamic range? I've not tried many uprights, but those I have played have had a "boxy" sound to me (that's "boxy" as in a sound inside a box).

I disagree look at paul barton on youtube playing ona yamaha upright, i am not saying this becuase i have an upright i have a grand too so its not personal

Well, I'm going to sound like a "broken record" but here's my take!

When I play even the best upright, I face a wall, BORING!!!
But when I play a grand, it's like "driving a convertible" in doors! Fun fun fun!

If you can afford it, get a grand! Even a baby grand.

Just my take. Think I've posted this same thing 10 other times, or more.

Not to mention that if you buy a "black" grand of any size, it's EASY . . . to sell, but generally, once a convertible is in the family, it gets passed on in the family! Uprights are a dime a dozen! Even good ons. But there's something "grand" about a GRAND piano!

Hope you join the "convertible" players in the crowd.

I think you know my answer to this one by now! Have a GRAND time shopping! (pun intended) !!!!