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Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: ElmerJFudd] #2546654
06/05/16 03:47 PM
06/05/16 03:47 PM
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Stephano Offline OP
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Thank you for your advice, ElmerJFudd. I appreciate it.


Yamaha Arius YDP-163
Korg Triton Studio 61
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Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: ElmerJFudd] #2546658
06/05/16 03:50 PM
06/05/16 03:50 PM
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JoeT Offline
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
I disagree, emphatically. I guess with David on this topic as well. Oh well. If this were true, 10 note poly would be sufficient.

Back in the Yamaha OPL3 FM synth days one had as few as 9 voices. That was limiting.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Stephano] #2546659
06/05/16 03:55 PM
06/05/16 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephano
Originally Posted by JoBert
it's probably not the polyphony that will be the first thing you will feel limited by

This is somewhat worrysome, because it appears that you think that 128 note polyphony would indeed be a limitation.


An emphatic NO is deserved here. As I've seen folks posting and as I agree, 128 is more than sufficient.

Quote
It's interesting that there isn't some kind of test that has been done at some point, with results posted online, about how 128 note polyphony handles fast, chord-rich music with lots of sustain. That would really be ideal.


There's no need. Use your ears, and instead concentrate on more pertinent issues.


Keys: Yamaha GC2, Casio Privia PX-3, Roland RD800, Alesis VI61, Pianoteq 6.0
My motto: Play and Let Play!
Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Stephano] #2546663
06/05/16 04:23 PM
06/05/16 04:23 PM
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Vught, The Netherlands
Dave Horne Offline
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There's no need. Use your ears, and instead concentrate on more pertinent issues.

I agree.

There seems to be a lot of folks who look to numbers instead of using their ears.

I owned a GranTouch (as I've written here many times) before I bought my N3. The GranTouch had 32 note polyphony and I never noticed notes dropping out.

I'm sure 64 note polyphony will suffice and even if there is a limitation, we won't hear it. Now we're discussing 128 note polyphony.

Are there software pianos where the user can dial in the polyphonic limitation? We could then 'play' a midi file (or whatever) of a very demanding piece and compare the outcomes.

I really can't think of anything more to add to this discussion.

smile


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Stephano] #2546666
06/05/16 04:30 PM
06/05/16 04:30 PM
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Frédéric L Offline
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Yes, Garritan CFX and Ivory have a polyphony limitation which can be selected. But I don't know if it affects "offline" (non realtime) rendering. If the limitation affect this rendering it will have an impact on the rendering time, it will be easy to notice it.

EDIT: Both displays the number of used voices. Ivory restrict the number of voices even in offline rendering. According to the displayed number of "layers", CFX doesn't seem to limit the polyphony.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 06/05/16 04:46 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Dave Horne] #2546667
06/05/16 04:34 PM
06/05/16 04:34 PM
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emenelton Offline
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
[i].

I really can't think of anything more to add to this discussion.

smile


Except get a Kawai ES8 and you won't have to worry about buying the wrong 1/8" adapter cable either!

Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Stephano] #2546673
06/05/16 04:55 PM
06/05/16 04:55 PM
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Frédéric L Offline
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Last edited by Frédéric L; 06/05/16 04:58 PM.

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Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Frédéric L] #2546675
06/05/16 05:05 PM
06/05/16 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Hah! That's what I call "evidence based posting". And confirmation that posters on PianoWorld really are special.

Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Stephano] #2546689
06/05/16 06:24 PM
06/05/16 06:24 PM
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Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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The car's gas tank holds 18 gallons. But I only have 10 gallons right now.
The tire pressure should be 32 PSI, but it's at only 30 right now.
The windows are not tinted. I wish they were.
The battery is dead.
Which should I worry about?

Piano polyphony is the tinted glass. Forget about it.

Look at something more important.
Like sound. Like touch.
Like anything other than polyphony.

Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Stephano] #2546692
06/05/16 06:30 PM
06/05/16 06:30 PM
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ElmerJFudd Offline
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L


Now compare to an acoustic grand piano with infinite ability to resonate and blend with liberal use of the pedal.


So, Ivory one way or another does what it has to do to allow a note attack or trigger to occur, most obviously it opts to chop off ends of notes and/or skip sounding the release samples and notes the player is no longer concentrating on as expected. But in listening back, can we agree that the 4 note sounds poo, the 24 does better and it improves from there eventually reaching a point of diminishing returns? Maybe we can't, I guess it depends on what ones expectations are.

Regardless, back to OP - with a solo sampled piano 128 notes is surely plenty... off topic, only layering with additional timbres would require yet more.

...and yet for other reasons a modern product as amazing as Ivory and the like are, it still falls short of the real deal. But it's so exciting to see advancements in digital piano technology and the developers' efforts to bring us closer and closer to the sound of the instrument we have grown to love with the benefits of affordability, space constraints, the ability to practice silently, to have the mechanism of the action translate to when we do have opportunity to play the real thing, to record ourselves and immediately play back, have backing tracks, etc. etc. etc. So please, advance, do better. Improve. Next I hope to see the amplifier and speaker systems improve and trickle down to instruments for all.

Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Frédéric L] #2546706
06/05/16 07:28 PM
06/05/16 07:28 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
(And just to test the effectiveness of the limit : 4 voices : http://www.sinerj.org/~loyer/piano/fantaisie_4.mp3)


Nice! wink

Reminds me of listing to 4 channel MODs on an Amiga. wink

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Stephano] #2546716
06/05/16 07:54 PM
06/05/16 07:54 PM
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ElmerJFudd Offline
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OT: Haha, terribly geeky James and right up my alley. I miss those days... I had the 64, 128, Amiga 500, and a 1200. Loaded with games and all sorts of music software. Even had it synced to smpte stripe on my 8 track reel-to-reel. Now that was making the most of whatever tech i could get my hands on.

Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Stephano] #2546729
06/05/16 09:08 PM
06/05/16 09:08 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Nice setup Elmer! wink

Yep, I too miss those 8-bit Amiga tracker days, although towards the end of my Amiga 'life' I was using OctaMED SoundStudio with MIDI and 14-bit virtual track mixing. wink

</geek>

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Stephano] #2546747
06/05/16 11:48 PM
06/05/16 11:48 PM
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France
Frédéric L Offline
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I was sure the 4 voices setting would please some people. wink


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Stephano] #2546783
06/06/16 06:16 AM
06/06/16 06:16 AM
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Germany
JoBert Offline
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Originally Posted by Stephano
Originally Posted by JoBert
it's probably not the polyphony that will be the first thing you will feel limited by

This is somewhat worrysome, because it appears that you think that 128 note polyphony would indeed be a limitation.

That was not my intention. I too think that you will be fine with 128 polyphony. Check my earlier posts here in the thread, I argued that even if 128 boils down to "actual" 64, because of stereo, you likely wouldn't be able to hear it as a limitation.

(Although from my own Kawai/Yamaha experience, I would probably prefer the Kawai anyway, if I tried the two DPs you are considering. Then the 128 polyphony question would be moot anyway...)

Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Stephano] #2546909
06/06/16 12:22 PM
06/06/16 12:22 PM
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propianist Offline
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Originally Posted by Stephano
Is there any known piece in classical music which would require more than 128 note polyphony? Is there any piano sonata where 128 polyphony of a digital piano would not be sufficient?


[Linked Image]

Consider the last few bars of Beethoven, 3rd movement of Sonata in C# minor, Opus 27, No 2.
I expect loads of pianists probably know this famous piece. I played it at school concert when I was a kid.
Anyway, if we depress sustain pedal down at beginning of this excerpt, and hold sustain pedal down through the whole arppeggio section up to the bass C# octaves at start of penultimate bar, and release it where the crotchet rest comes, I would say that section strikes 103 notes in total, all of which sustain simultaneously until the pedal release cuts them off, whereupon you may even trigger 103 release samples too!!!!

But - you can count them yourself - there's undoubtedly 103 main note samples to be sounded.

This means that 64 note poly is definitely insufficient.

At dynamic strike of forte = loud, the three bars duration of a piece marked "Presto agitato" isn't nearly long enough for any of these notes to have faded out to silence already, so they all must keep sounding. All 103 of them.

PLUS...
Any serious modern digital piano would add sympathetic string resonance overtone layers - for every strike of every note - and here, there is clearly going to be a lot of harmonic inter-relationship and reinforcement between all the C#'s, G#'s and E's over the 4 octave range of this arpeggio and extended by further harmonics beyond this to the extreme of the piano range. You could reasonably expect at least 3 or 4 layers of harmonic overtones to be triggered by a modern digital piano sympathetic string resonance algorithm (F, 2F, 3F, 4F etc.) so there could be 3 or 4 times as many samples sounded, in addition to the global sustain pedal resonance sample too.

I'd say this would easily exceed 128 voice polyphony of a modern day digital piano's sound generator with sympathetic string resonance overtones, release samples, etc, if fully implemented.

If stereo samples do require two voices of polyphony technically then you can obviously double your estimate.

Last edited by propianist; 06/06/16 01:33 PM.
Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: propianist] #2546919
06/06/16 12:47 PM
06/06/16 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by propianist
so they all must keep sounding. All 103 of them

You won't be able to hear all 103 of them. This is why MP3 compression works so well. Same goes for subtle side effects.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Stephano] #2546928
06/06/16 01:18 PM
06/06/16 01:18 PM
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Vught, The Netherlands
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I wouldn't depress the sustain pedal down for three bars in that example.

I'm surprised that this thread is still going. smile


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Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: Stephano] #2546933
06/06/16 01:24 PM
06/06/16 01:24 PM
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Stephano Offline OP
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I was just about to order the YDP-162 with 128 note polyphony... and then I read propianist's post.

Blah.


Yamaha Arius YDP-163
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Re: 128 note polyphony question [Re: JoeT] #2546934
06/06/16 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
You won't be able to hear all 103 of them. This is why MP3 compression works so well. Same goes for subtle side effects.


MP3 compression does not "work so well" - it is a lossy compression which degrades sound quality and also introduces compression artifacts into the audio that were not present in the original.
It's easy to hear the difference between a 320kbps MP3 and the same source 1440kbps linear WAV of "CD quality" 16 bit 44.1KHz.

Of course you can hear all the notes ringing in this 5 second Beethoven excerpt. They're all struck forte - what else do you expect?!
If the notes were to disappear the total energy of the excerpt would be much less. The level in dB which the passage crescendos up to, by addition of sounding notes, would be a lot lower and you could notice the difference. Play it on an acoustic piano with sustain pedal, then play it staccato without pedal and hear the difference in total dB volume!
Adding all the notes together makes a big dramatic effect! The WHOLE summed effect is what you hear, not necessarily each individual note sustain tail in stark clarity and definition, but the sum total waveform.

Psychoacoustic masking of sounds may prevent you from clearly hearing whether a note was ringing or silenced, but you can still hear it even if it's not as blatantly crystal clear as when in isolation. Your ears don't stop hearing details just because other sounds are present. You can focus your attention. You can listen to one voice in a crowded room.

eg. Consider an orchestra which normally has 20 violins.

Psychoacoustic masking concepts might make you think you couldn't hear one individual violin in the mix, but if one violin was slightly flat or sharp you would hear it, and if one player abruptly stopped (like a polyphony note cut-off), you theoretically could hear that subtle dB level change also.

Adding together 20 equal volume violins raises volume +12.97dB louder than one solo violin.
If one player drops out (now 19 violins) the volume becomes only +12.75dB which is a -0.22dB change. Not massive, but it can be noticeable. EQ controls are often calibrated in +/-0.1dB steps. I know I can hear changes of +/-0.1dB in my digital mixer and EQ, and I believe a level change of -0.22dB is perceivable by a discriminating listener too. Especially if it's a sudden dropout - like a note cutoff due to polyphony limit being reached suddenly, rather than a soft gradual fadeout.

If you limited polyphony to 64, vs original = 256 voice poly, you could actually measure the difference in dB between the two excerpts in a DAW audio editor. That's a fact.
Whether you can hear slight dB differences or not, or whether you even care, depends on your experience as a skilled listener and the quality of your monitoring setup / loudspeakers / headphones, etc.

Obviously if you spend your time listening to low bit rate MP3s, then don't expect to hear all the subtleties that exist in audio!

PS. Before anyone else says it - Beethoven did NOT hear all 103 notes! Yes, thankyou. hahaha

Last edited by propianist; 06/06/16 02:00 PM.
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