Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
141 registered members (agraffe, akc42, AnthonyPaulO, AlphaBravoCharlie, amad23, 7uturu, Animisha, anamnesis, Alex Hutor, 38 invisible), 1,282 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
The faster chromatic scale fingering #2384784
02/11/15 01:11 AM
02/11/15 01:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,675
Arghhh Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
Arghhh  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,675
In the 3rd movement of the Beethoven sonata for horn and piano (op. 17), there is a RH 2 octave chromatic run in sextuplets starting on C. Quarter note is typically around 144 (so there would be 6 notes per beat). I tried it earlier today with the 13-13-123 fingering, but I'm wondering if I should switch to the other standard fingering 1234-123-123. I can't currently play the run that fast.

Would the second fingering be faster, and would it work ok in sextuplets? I'm asking here because I have never used that fingering before, and it will probably take a day or two to sink in.

Last edited by Arghhh; 02/11/15 01:53 AM. Reason: added starting note

Professional pianist and piano teacher.
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: Arghhh] #2384789
02/11/15 01:33 AM
02/11/15 01:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 237
Bellevue, WA
B
benjamink Offline
Full Member
benjamink  Offline
Full Member
B

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 237
Bellevue, WA
Sorry, I don't know the piece - so I can't provide any personal preferences in the passage. The most common chromatic fingerings I'm aware of (starting on E):

123 13 13 123 13 - Most common. I find this difficult at very fast tempos.
123 1234 123 13 - I find this faster, because there are fewer thumb shifts.
123 1234 12345 - I find this fastest, but also the most difficult to keep even and relaxed.

There are endless variations on these fingerings to place the pulse with a thumb. At quarter=144 I would probably feel this in cut time, at which point you are playing all 12 chromatic notes per "beat".

Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: Arghhh] #2384904
02/11/15 12:51 PM
02/11/15 12:51 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 178
Paris
W
worov Offline
Full Member
worov  Offline
Full Member
W

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 178
Paris
From C to C ascending (reverse it for descending).

Basic:
RH – 1313123131312
LH – 1313213131321
Advantage: easy to remember
Disadvantage: won’t do for fast scales (too much thumb movement).

My favourite:
RH – 2313123123412
LH – 1313214321321
Advantage: smooth and fast (gives the thumb a rest).
Disadvantage: not so easy to remember which finger goes where.

Try this as well:
RH – 5343453434345
LH – 4343543434354
Advantage: excellent finger exercise, in some pieces it will be the only fingering that will work. (particularly for the right hand).
Disadvantage: Awkward.

Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: Arghhh] #2384913
02/11/15 01:12 PM
02/11/15 01:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,906
guess where in CA and WA
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member
laguna_greg  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,906
guess where in CA and WA
I find for most things, the 13-13-123 works very well in speed.

But for some textures, or some directions, or certain places to start, I found your second fingering can go even faster and more solidly. For instance, I find the second fingering to work really well for the chromatic scales in the Liszt mephisto waltz, much better than 13-13-123.

Maybe it's middle age creeping up on me.


Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/greg-dempster/34/325/6b9/ (my day job)
Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: worov] #2384929
02/11/15 01:44 PM
02/11/15 01:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,952
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
7000 Post Club Member
AZNpiano  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,952
Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by worov
Try this as well:
RH – 5343453434345
LH – 4343543434354
Advantage: excellent finger exercise, in some pieces it will be the only fingering that will work. (particularly for the right hand).
Disadvantage: Awkward.

Are you talking about Chopin Op. 10 No. 2? Otherwise, I'd never use this crazy fingering.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: AZNpiano] #2384935
02/11/15 01:54 PM
02/11/15 01:54 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 178
Paris
W
worov Offline
Full Member
worov  Offline
Full Member
W

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 178
Paris
Yes indeed, I was thinking about pieces in which fingers 1 and 2 are busy playing others notes. That Chopin study is indeed the kind of piece.

Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: worov] #2385043
02/11/15 06:04 PM
02/11/15 06:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Michael Sayers Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Michael Sayers  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by worov
From C to C ascending (reverse it for descending).

Basic:
RH – 1313123131312
LH – 1313213131321
Advantage: easy to remember
Disadvantage: won’t do for fast scales (too much thumb movement).

In my opinion it works better as this variation, as here for the right hand, with one fingering for motion toward the 5th finger, and another fingering for motion toward the thumb so that in the latter scenario the arm can help drive the descent, all with the fingers, hand and arm flowing together . . . most of the motion surrounding the thumb in ascent, and for speed, is rotational and "pulling" with the thumb and fingers as the hand climbs up the keys and even though the arm "presses", and with the arm supplying "gravity" to the hand in descent as the fingers stair-step the hand down the keys:

R.H. ascending - 123121231212123 . . . (continuous pattern, B natural to a C#)
R.H. descending - 321313132131321 . . . (continuous pattern, C# to a B natural)

In descent the right hand turns slightly to left and with the elbow up and out a bit so as to even drive from the shoulder and body if it is wanted for the scales to be fff while fluid and relaxed.

Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: Arghhh] #2385057
02/11/15 06:56 PM
02/11/15 06:56 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 58
Paris
O
Okay Offline
Full Member
Okay  Offline
Full Member
O

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 58
Paris
I just had a look to the score to get more insight about the context of your chromatic scale. Before picking a fingering, two things. First, you should not want to rush from the first notes because the horn (or cello) is playing long notes. Starting a fast scale very slightly below the tempo (really a little bit, this more about an initial accent and no precipitation than a slower start) avoids tension from the beginning and frees your fingers for the rest. Then, during the scale you need to "feel" the six-notes grouping and know from memory the note starting each group. When your brain will manage this, a good portion of the speed wall should vanish. If it does not really help, try to memorize the note every 3 notes. This is more crucial than the fingering, in my opinion. Several fingering would work here.

That being said, for that scale I would use the fingering (from the initial C to the next D#) : 23-12-123-1234-123-12.
The standard proposal without 4 could already work once you are done with the preparatory step. I would avoid using the 5 in most cases ... useful in some Liszt and later composers, but out of style in Beethoven or classical style (too fluid !).

Last edited by Okay; 02/11/15 07:04 PM.
Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: Arghhh] #2385065
02/11/15 07:17 PM
02/11/15 07:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,114
TwoSnowflakes Offline
2000 Post Club Member
TwoSnowflakes  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,114
I'm using a modified 4321-ish pattern in the descending chromatic at the end of the A section of the Fantaisie Impromptu. I wanted to use standard 31/321 fingering, but this does work better.

Not that I've got a huge amount of experience in fast moving chromatics, either standard or modified, but I did find that a majority of suggested fingerings for that passage don't use the 31/321, and now that things are speeding up, I am kind of preferring how the 4321 fires off.

Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: Arghhh] #2505591
01/30/16 04:44 PM
01/30/16 04:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,078
W
wouter79 Offline
5000 Post Club Member
wouter79  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
W

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,078
I'm working for about a month now on chromatic runs (4 octaves up and down). RH feels fine but my LH tires very quickly (max 2x up and down) when I get to speed. I'm at about 8 notes per second so it seeems not really fast yet. To me both hand motions look the same.

Now I wonder: is this already above the ok-ish speed for the 'standard' 1313213131321 (LH)? Or should this work fine and is there something else -
eg my LH has wrong technique or LH has to get used to this? Or is the LH always tiring quicker because the LH hammers are heavier?


[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: Arghhh] #2506778
02/03/16 08:19 AM
02/03/16 08:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,093
New York
T
trigalg693 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
trigalg693  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,093
New York
I almost exclusively use 1231234 (although with all the op.10 no.2 practice I find myself crossing 4 over 5 a lot more now :P), and have been for years. It's really the only way to get maximum speed.

I never got around to polishing and recording it, but for example people who play Liszt's Chasse-neige with 1313123 will slow down a lot on the chromatic scales. I'm not quite at Berzevosky level where he plays them at 260 (4 notes per beat) or something, but I think I can hit 200. Actually, lemme go check...230.

Last edited by trigalg693; 02/03/16 08:22 AM.
Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: trigalg693] #2506867
02/03/16 01:01 PM
02/03/16 01:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,078
W
wouter79 Offline
5000 Post Club Member
wouter79  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
W

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,078
Can you please clarify,

1. 1231234 seems unusual when starting on c (I assume we are going up). You then end up with thumb crossing over 3 to reach d#
2. These are only 7 notes, where you need at least 12 if you repeat the pattern every octave. Just repeating your 7 notes does not return you quickly back to 1 on c either.


[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: Arghhh] #2544527
05/29/16 02:50 PM
05/29/16 02:50 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1
P
PianoGo Offline
Junior Member
PianoGo  Offline
Junior Member
P

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1
I play this Sonata and I think the best way to do it is sharing the scale with the left hand. The first 13 notes, first octave, could be played with LH 1-2-1-3-2-1-4-3-2-1-3-2-1 Then continues RH from c# 2-1-2-1-2-3-1-3-1-3-1-2-3-1-2-1-2-3-1-3-1-3-1-2-3-1-2 and trill starting 1-3 and 2-3-4 to finish it. However it's hard and it has to be played with a very soft fast and superficial touch with fingers very close to the keys glissando type and of course by heart watching the keys not the score!!!!

Last edited by PianoGo; 05/29/16 04:36 PM.
Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: Arghhh] #2545184
05/31/16 07:26 PM
05/31/16 07:26 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 119
Foster City, CA, US
K
Ken Iisaka Offline
Full Member
Ken Iisaka  Offline
Full Member
K

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 119
Foster City, CA, US
The fastest chromatic scale I've ever encountered are in two variations in the Etude in e-minor, Op.39, No.12 "Le Festin d'Esope" by Charles-Valentin Alkan.

At quaver/8th = 126, the hemidemisemiquavers or 64th notes represents 16.8 note per second.

As crazy as it sounds, and as the composer suggests, the fingering that I found work best was 4-3-2-1 4-3-2-1 4-3-2-1... descending, and 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 ascending. In either case, the thumb lands on C, E and G#.

Another that I tried involves sliding the fingers from the black keys to white keys. Ascending from C, you have: 1-2-2-3-3 1-2-2-3-3-4-4, descending from C: 2-1-4-4-3-3-2-2 1-3-3-2-2.

Yes, seriously.

Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2545194
05/31/16 08:10 PM
05/31/16 08:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,542
California
P
phantomFive Offline
3000 Post Club Member
phantomFive  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,542
California
Originally Posted by ken
As crazy as it sounds, and as the composer suggests, the fingering that I found work best was 4-3-2-1 4-3-2-1 4-3-2-1... descending, and 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 ascending. In either case, the thumb lands on C, E and G#.

I'm not sure how to handle my thumb on a G# in a chromatic scale


Poetry is rhythm
Re: The faster chromatic scale fingering [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2545400
06/01/16 03:53 PM
06/01/16 03:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,096
Reseda, California
J
JohnSprung Offline
Unobtanium Subscriber
JohnSprung  Offline
Unobtanium Subscriber
J

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,096
Reseda, California
Originally Posted by Ken Iisaka
Another that I tried involves sliding the fingers from the black keys to white keys. Ascending from C, you have: 1-2-2-3-3 1-2-2-3-3-4-4, descending from C: 2-1-4-4-3-3-2-2 1-3-3-2-2.

Yes, seriously.


Yes, slide-off's work just fine. I use them a lot. It helps to record and play back to check that you're getting them even. That's the goal of slide-off practice.



-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha PF-1000
by Gavin24985. 03/19/19 09:09 AM
Happy Birthday Lennie Tristano!
by Dfrankjazz. 03/19/19 05:09 AM
“Spring Time” - A beautiful song
by Vũ Trần. 03/19/19 05:08 AM
Piano action issue
by kokatla. 03/19/19 04:31 AM
Practice session of Chopin prelude 3
by baudelairepianist. 03/19/19 12:26 AM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics190,989
Posts2,808,076
Members92,812
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2