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Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: fizikisto] #2542033
05/21/16 03:17 PM
05/21/16 03:17 PM
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petes1 Offline
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Originally Posted by fizikisto
hag01
Yes, the Roland RD-800 is a fantastic stage piano......


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Keys: Yamaha GC2, Casio Privia PX-3, Roland RD800, Alesis VI61, Pianoteq 6.0
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Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: hag01] #2542089
05/21/16 09:13 PM
05/21/16 09:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,626
Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted by hag01

There is no budget limit, I willing to pay as much as it cost for a realistic piano touch, I'll wait until I'll get the money if I'll have to.


With those magic words:

Buy a Yamaha Avant Grand.

Remove the case, and loudspeakers, and power amplifiers.

Re-build a case, so that all you have is the keyboard mechanism, sound generator, and enough circuitry to send MIDI messages.

That _might_ be small and light enough to qualify as "portable" -- another one of your requirements.

Then do a test:

Buy a copy of Pianoteq "Standard" (wide range of variation in sound), with the "Steinway B" and "Bluthner" options;

Buy a copy of "Vintage D" (or another highly-rated sample-based software piano);

. . . You'll need a computer fast enough to run those, but a
. . . high-powered laptop will do the job.

This gives you the "most-like-an-acoustic" action available, and several choices for sound generation (Pianoteq, sample-player, and the built-in Avant Grand sound).

. . . Pick whichever sound generator _you_ like the best,
. . . paired with the Avant Grand action.

You did say the budget was unlimited . . .



. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: Charles Cohen] #2542177
05/22/16 07:23 AM
05/22/16 07:23 AM
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Posts: 94
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Mr Zaxels Offline
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Originally Posted by hag01

There is no budget limit, I willing to pay as much as it cost for a realistic piano touch, I'll wait until I'll get the money if I'll have to.


With those magic words:

Buy a Yamaha Avant Grand.

Remove the case, and loudspeakers, and power amplifiers.

Re-build a case, so that all you have is the keyboard mechanism, sound generator, and enough circuitry to send MIDI messages.

That _might_ be small and light enough to qualify as "portable" -- another one of your requirements.

Then do a test:

Buy a copy of Pianoteq "Standard" (wide range of variation in sound), with the "Steinway B" and "Bluthner" options;

Buy a copy of "Vintage D" (or another highly-rated sample-based software piano);

. . . You'll need a computer fast enough to run those, but a
. . . high-powered laptop will do the job.

This gives you the "most-like-an-acoustic" action available, and several choices for sound generation (Pianoteq, sample-player, and the built-in Avant Grand sound).

. . . Pick whichever sound generator _you_ like the best,
. . . paired with the Avant Grand action.

You did say the budget was unlimited . . .



If we're considering unlimited budget, we might as well go all the way and get a Grand Piano with a Silent system to get a MIDI out, and then trigger whichever samples you want.

Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: Mr Zaxels] #2542209
05/22/16 10:05 AM
05/22/16 10:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
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Europe
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JoeT Offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Zaxels
If we're considering unlimited budget, we might as well go all the way and get a Grand Piano with a Silent system to get a MIDI out, and then trigger whichever samples you want.

But a grand is not mobile.


Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
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Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: hag01] #2542233
05/22/16 11:58 AM
05/22/16 11:58 AM
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Fer De Armas Offline
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Hi, it depends... IMHO, for wooden keys, any with Kawai GFII; for hybrid keys, any with Roland PHA-50; plastic with counterweights, any with Kawai RHIII and with hollow plastic keys, any with Kawai RHII at first place and Roland PHA-4 Concert for a second choice. Cheers!.

Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: Charles Cohen] #2542284
05/22/16 04:08 PM
05/22/16 04:08 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 234
Switzerland
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oldmancoyote Offline
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Switzerland
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen

Re-build a case, so that all you have is the keyboard mechanism, sound generator, and enough circuitry to send MIDI messages.

That _might_ be small and light enough to qualify as "portable" -- another one of your requirements.
I recently had the opportunity to remove a full action from an acoustic grand (an old Bechstein). I didn't put it on a pair of scales, but I'd say it was about 20 kg/45 lbs. Without sensors, dampers (back action) or any electronic, never mind the case. Portable it may be, but it requires porters to do so! wink

One more vote for Nord Pianos (Nord 3/Nord 2).

Last edited by oldmancoyote; 05/22/16 04:10 PM.
Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: oldmancoyote] #2542289
05/22/16 04:39 PM
05/22/16 04:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,271
UK
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spanishbuddha Offline
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UK
Originally Posted by oldmancoyote

One more vote for Nord Pianos (Nord 3/Nord 2).

Nope, subject is about the most realistic. Nord doesn't come close, at least there are others on the lists above that are closer in action for sure. It's a fatuous debate anyway, maybe fun though, and the OP just has to try a few and choose or walk on by.

Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: spanishbuddha] #2542291
05/22/16 04:58 PM
05/22/16 04:58 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 234
Switzerland
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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Originally Posted by oldmancoyote

One more vote for Nord Pianos (Nord 3/Nord 2).

Nope, subject is about the most realistic. Nord doesn't come close, at least there are others on the lists above that are closer in action for sure. It's a fatuous debate anyway, maybe fun though, and the OP just has to try a few and choose or walk on by.
And I suppose I'm not entitled to my opinion on the realism of the Nord action, given portability is a significant factor? Or you are the God of pianos?

Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: oldmancoyote] #2542343
05/22/16 09:15 PM
05/22/16 09:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,626
Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted by oldmancoyote
. . .
I recently had the opportunity to remove a full action from an acoustic grand (an old Bechstein). I didn't put it on a pair of scales, but I'd say it was about 20 kg/45 lbs. Without sensors, dampers (back action) or any electronic, never mind the case. Portable it may be, but it requires porters to do so! wink
. . .


Thanks -- I was wondering how much an acoustic action weighed. You wouldn't need dampers (since no strings), but you would need sensors -- e.g. a PianoScan setup. And there would have to be _something_ for the hammers to hit, and bounce off.

So, with a lightweight case (molded carbon-fiber-reinforced plastic?), it might actually be possible . . .

In the "real world", given the requirements, I'd probably try a VPC1 (which you can buy, rather than building a prototype), and hope it was "close enough" to the real thing. The VPC1 is 29 kG (= 64 lbs), a laptop would be another few pounds. Not impossible to carry, if you're young (or old and strong).

Another approach on the problem of "portability" was the Yamaha CP80, a hybrid (electro/acoustic) grand piano that only weighed a few hundred pounds.



. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: oldmancoyote] #2542359
05/22/16 11:23 PM
05/22/16 11:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,491
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted by oldmancoyote
Or you are the God of pianos?


I don't believe Buddhists believe in God...


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: Kawai James] #2542375
05/23/16 12:00 AM
05/23/16 12:00 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,522
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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CyberGene  Offline
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Sofia, Bulgaria
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by oldmancoyote
Or you are the God of pianos?


I don't believe Buddhists believe in God...


LOL


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX, Yamaha NU1X
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: hag01] #2542378
05/23/16 12:05 AM
05/23/16 12:05 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,522
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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CyberGene  Offline
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Sofia, Bulgaria
Strictly speaking he's Spanish Buddha (not Buddhist), so he's kind of God indeed although my knowledge of Buddhism is very limited and I'm not quite sure if they consider it god per se smile In any case I am also a Spanish Buddhist in regards to Nord's piano realism laugh


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX, Yamaha NU1X
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: hag01] #2542379
05/23/16 12:12 AM
05/23/16 12:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,491
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Lol. wink


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: hag01] #2543330
05/26/16 01:50 AM
05/26/16 01:50 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 463
Bachus Offline
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For stage piano authticy my list would be Kawai MP11 bwfore Roland RD800, but the MP11 despite being a stagepiano is in my book to heavy to be called portable... I like the RD800 more then the MP7 where it comes to keyfeel..

Kurzweil Forte, Nord piano3, korg Kronos, Yamaha Montage all have great piano sounds.. But the keyfeel falls short of the RD800...

Somehow, i never could really like Yamaha CP4, its keyfeel realisme being close thr RD800, but its piano sounds are so typically Yamaha..

If you dont mind onboard speakers... You also should consider the Kawai ES8...


No all you need to do is find the time and a place to try them out for yourself, because noboddy knows what your opinion is but yourself... We all have different ideas about realisme based on personall preferences, and no matter we all try, they will almost allways influence our desigens on what is most acurate...

Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: hag01] #2543355
05/26/16 05:36 AM
05/26/16 05:36 AM
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Fer De Armas Offline
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Hi Bachus, in another posts you said that you liked MP7 key action a bit more over the RD800... please could you share your new feelings with us?, and why? Thks... Cheers!.

Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: Fer De Armas] #2543376
05/26/16 07:55 AM
05/26/16 07:55 AM
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Posts: 463
Bachus Offline
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Originally Posted by Fer De Armas
Hi Bachus, in another posts you said that you liked MP7 key action a bit more over the RD800... please could you share your new feelings with us?, and why? Thks... Cheers!.


Because that was explicitly about the MP7 handling organ sounds, if i remember correctly..

I had a chance two weeks ago to compare the mp7 and RD800 head on head, i went to Oostendorp music for a Yamaha Montage demo, i was more then an hour early, and so got to sit with both instruments.. Ranking one slightly higher then the other doesnt mean its actually better, its my opinion and someone elses opinion might differ...

Espescially when it comes to keyfeel, its a moment and even most Acoustic piano's feel a little different.. The action of a Yamaha grand is different from a Bechstein... Some prefer Yamaha Grands, i prefer the Bechstein.. Why? Because it probably is best for my playstyle..

Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: hag01] #2543379
05/26/16 08:09 AM
05/26/16 08:09 AM
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Fer De Armas Offline
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Thanks😉

Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: hag01] #2543472
05/26/16 01:15 PM
05/26/16 01:15 PM
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Edb123 Offline
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Bachus - I was more THAN an hour early - slightly higher THAN the other

Fer - HAVE you tried ......


Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: hag01] #2543569
05/26/16 09:14 PM
05/26/16 09:14 PM
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Messiah Offline
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Originally Posted by hag01
What about roland?
Are they any good?


I would go for something cheap and save yourself a lot of money and then invest in synthogy ivory or similar, I love ivory myself and think it gives quite a nice control over the sound as well.

Take a look at Roland FP-30, when I tried the F-140 in store I was pretty blown away by the feel of the keys and that one had the PHA-4 standard. The FP-30 have the PHA-4 a bit better I guess according to them. Not sure what the difference is but I liked the standard a lot so I would not necessarily say the PHA-4 is better than standard you just have to try it yourself.

Since you want portable the only option would be the FP-30, or if you go for the F-140 and just don't mount it to it's stand and also disassemble the speakers underneath since they stick out at the bottom. Otherwise it would work as a stage piano, disconnected speakers wont affect the main outputs or the headphone out either. The F-140 comes with quite a nice sound in itself, the only drawback that I could tell trying it was the speakers not being so powerful but they are enough for most practice playing at home, but you say it's not important so that's that.

In the end you have to make up your own mind but don't get too blinded by the whole "pay more get more". Sure in some ways you do but you do pay for a lot of stupid stuff also that you might not need. Big speakers being one, nice cabinet being a second, more sounds a third and so on, more advanced keybed (according to them), might not be true for you and so on.

The avantgrands are nice in some ways but far from perfect, I found the avantgrand a bit on the heavy side, they had a Yamaha real grand next to it with a silent function and that blew me away. Perfect feel and you could not tell any difference almost from playing the real piano and turning on the silent function, it was insanely good samples, much better than avantgrand even. But the price tag was like 22000€ or something like that. If I had unlimited money I would get it instantly.

I think the model was called C1X SH but I have to go to store to make sure but I know it was something with C1, but I saw on their homepage they have a few different models. But it is at that level I started to get impressed by the Yamaha silent models, a beautiful touch very smooth liquid feel with right amount of weight, just wonderful. And since that is the step to get satisfied, why not just go for something really cheap since you're not gonna get happy anyway halfway, at least that is how I think.

That is what I felt with the F-140 it is amazing value for money but I pulled the trigger on the HP-605. But now I find myself playing a lot more with ivory on it. Even if the sound is not bad it's just a bit different character, ivory is just more piano sounding to my ears with a beautiful bell-like tone, the pedaling doesn't work as nice with Ivory though, the Roland have a really nice 0-127 continous feel to their pedal. Maybe something that I can adjust in settings but I haven't tried it. At times the ivory do phase with the HP-605 so there are similarities in sound otherwise it would not do that, it just lack some of that bell magic in the attack I think.

In my case I wanted decent speakers and a nice cabinet is a bonus, even though I really liked the modest look of the F-140 also and don't think it looked bad at all as some say. I might actually get that one as an extra or a master instead of my Fatar VMK-188 plus, that is how much I enjoyed it.

Feel and sound is key, and sound you get through software if needed, then what you need is feel of the keys so just go out and try the cheapest DP's/stage pianos and settle for a touch you enjoy.

Ivory is releasing a standalone module with their sample library which looks like a nice solution instead of having a big laptop or stationary computer hooked up. I might actually get that myself depending on price.


Good luck with your purchase and take good care of your money, no point doing stupid purchases just because you have money.

Re: Looking for the most realistic DP in market [Re: Messiah] #2544212
05/28/16 03:12 PM
05/28/16 03:12 PM
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Fer De Armas Offline
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Hi Messiah, try a Kawai CN34... IMHO this DP has a much better key action than the Roland F-140R; or for a portable choice, look for the Kawai ES100 if you want a option similar to the Roland FP30. Cheers!.

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