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I constantly read that a grand piano should be the instrument of choice over an upright. Aspects such as string length, dynamics, repetition, key length, una corda, sostenuto, volume, room placement and appearance are stated as reasons.

Additionally I see mentioned that only a grand is suitable to progress to higher performance grades.

My understanding is that vertical pianos were owned and played by Beethoven (a loan from Schiff), Liszt (Ibach), Chopin, Ralph Vaughan Williams, George Gershwin, Scott Joplin, Paul McCartney(S&Sons), Lang Lang (from 5 to 12 years old) and no doubt many others.

I have not been able to find a list of music pieces that could only be satisfactorily played on a grand and not on a Tier 1 upright. My post relates to the majority of home players and not for concert hall performers.

So far with my new upright I have not found any limitations. Repetition is as fast as I can manage although I admit it cannot repeat from 2-5mm string distances. It has an excellent dynamic range and a beautiful tone. The current msrp is $41,817

I would be interested to hear other opinions.

Ian

The high end uprights such as Schimmel are better in touch than a cheap grand piano. Better in tone as well. That's why a high end vertical is a better purchase than a low end grand.

I've seen artists use uprights in all states of disrepair and do just fine. I'd not limit the good uprights to tier one - as sometimes the lesser models can surprise you.

I've said it here many times before. The music that comes out has more to do with what's between your ears than with what's under your fingers.

Larry.

I agree top notch uprights provide no limitations to learning and playing the piano. If you have the space however, a nice quality grand piano looks great.

Rich

Agreed! I always say that I'd rather hear a good player on a "bad" piano, than a bad player on a good piano.

(and I'm not saying that uprights are bad)

That reminds me...

I remember someone once posting a video link here of a songwriter playing at his upright. He was smiling and talking about how he loved having all the metal hit him straight in the face (the front cover was even off). As I recall, the piano was seriously out of tune, but the consensus was that no one was going to tell him so!

Unfortunately, I don't recall who it was.

I'd love to have a nice grand, but my level of skill justifies neither the money nor the amount of room a grand would consume.

My Hoffmann has a very nice tone and action and on those few occasions when I'm in the zone it's quite nice.

Ian, it gives me great pleasure when I read of owners of any type of piano being satisfied with their instrument; it's a bond that I'm sure will provide you with many hours of performing pleasure.

Most higher end verticals have a more refined and easier to play action then their lower priced competition, but when all is said and done, the grand action, by virtue of its design, will always have the potential for a performance edge over the vertical. Physics dictates this reality.

The fact that piano greats and pop stars have owned and utilized vertical pianos in their lifetime to me is inconsequential; no modern composer or performer would use one in their recording studio or set (unless, i.e., a true honky-tonk saloon piano sound and visual were required for a music video or performance), nor are they normally present as centerpieces in their 800 sq. ft. living rooms. It would seem that the verticals that they used were what was available to them at the time, and there's no shame in that, but at the same time I'm sure they wished that they instead had a wonderfully prepared and voiced to their liking grand piano to practice or compose upon.

"Satisfactorily played" is but one aspect of the piano experience; being satisfactorily heard is generally of more importance, the outcome of which will hopefully touch and caress both the players and listeners ear in a pleasing fashion, and this is where the grand piano by virtue of its action and its open design has the potential to excel beyond the confines of even the very best of vertical pianos.

Regards,
Andy

Andy brings up an important point, here.

One of the major differences between an upright and a grand is between the function of the "soft" pedal on an upright and the function of the una corda on a grand.

On an upright, when the soft pedal is depressed the hammers are moved closer to the strings, but the hammers still strike all the strings. The distance the hammers travel with the soft pedal depressed is shorter than when it is not depressed, and that accounts for the "softer" volume.

On a grand, when the una corda is depressed, the entire action moves to the right so that the hammers are not striking all strings but two instead of three (in the area of the piano where each note has three strings, of course) or one, instead of two. The result is not only a lower volume, but a totally different tonal colour.

Therefore, on an upright, the engaging of the soft pedal not only gives a lower volume but changes the feel of the action as the hammers are departing from a different position and are travelling a shorter distance.

There is not the same change in the feel of the action when engaging the una corda on a grand.

All this might be considered purely academic, since the una corda is used sparingly by most pianists - or should be! - but when its use is understood and required, it provides a change in tonal character that an upright can not provide.

The other factor that can affect the difference of consistency of touch between the two is that the release of a key on a grand causes the hammer to fall under the force of gravity. In an upright the hammer falls back by virtue of the force of a spring. It's quite possible, and happens occasionally, that all the springs are not of exactly the same tension and therefore not all hammers will fall back with the same velocity, giving the possibility of a less consistent feel to the action.

Regards,

I am not so sure it is as simple as that. When the the downward keystoke is complete the hammer is held against the backcheck by said spring. The wippen falls under the force of gravity. Do high speed videos or mechanical analysis show that the catcher cannot keep up with the backcheck as the wippen falls?

If the backchecks are regulated for close catching the jack will pop back under the butt as the key is released by a few mm. This allows for repetition similar to a grand. I do not think it would be a good idea for Ian to try this on his Bluthner!

Yes, you are right. My explanation was simplistic.

Regards,

My upright Mason & Hamlin has a repetition action. There were a number of uprights made with them up to about 100 years ago, but I guess there was not enough difference for most players to make them worthwhile.

Well, there is the repetition issue, a really finely regulated grand allows easier and faster trills.

But, I really enjoyed humiliating someone once who said that uprights just can't handle trills in Scarlatti, and I said, "Oh, you mean like these?" (then proceeded to play perfectly even and fast fussy ornamentation) on a Yamaha U3.

I agree with this from my own personal experience. My Yamaha U1 had a very even and light action, and I enjoyed it a lot, until I started seriously playing grands. After a time, I noticed that dynamics, for me, were much more controlled on the grands. Not that I didn't love the Yamaha, it was a great piano that got me playing again, but after a time, I realized I wanting something more. My Baldwin R's touch is very different from my old Yamaha's. At first I was reticent and wondered if I made a bad decision, but after a couple days, I started loving the ability I now had to control dynamics. There's no contest, to me personally, the difference between control in an upright and a grand. For me, the grand wins every time (as long as it's in great playing condition). I loved my U1, but I knew I had to go elsewhere in order to get what I wanted out of the music I was playing.

The famous pianist, Percy Grainger, had two uprights and a grand in his house, so he arguably liked uprights better. 😀

http://www.percygrainger.org/gramusic.htm

Well, I'm certainly not famous, or all that good of a player, and I have 3 grands and an upright. I like my upright almost as well as I like my grands. I don't plan on getting rid of it... (although I have promised one of my grands to my 13 year old granddaughter, whenever my son can find room for it in his house.)

I don't think upright owners here on PW should feel slighted by all the comments about grands being better than an upright. It depends on the upright, the grand, and one's perception of what they like and can afford or have room for.

Just my .02.

Rick

So at which price point (and grand length) does the grand become better than the high end vertical?

Well, you decide.

For me, when faced with the decision between, say, a Bechstein Concert 8 and a Kawai GX3 or Yamaha C3x (or the like, list prices are about 30k Euros where I live), the choice would be clearly for the grand. Probably it would even be the same (for me) in a somewhat lower price range.

On the other hand, comparing a 10-15k Euro upright of a German make (say) with a 10-15k Euro Asian Grand, I am pretty sure the upright would win, for me.

This is all for new instruments, referring to list prices. For used instruments, other price ranges would be relevant. But as I said, you decide.

Maurus must have it about right.

Bols split uprights and grands into price groups so you can compare. For instance, would you prefer a Steingraeber 122 or an Estonia 168 for about the same price?

http://www.bolpianos.nl/vleugels/nieuwevleugel.html

Here is an interesting link that discusses trills. Significant for me is the case of unmeasured trills where it is left to the player to decide how fast to play. So even if a grand can permit faster trills I doubt that it is a requirement to play as fast as possible?

http://jeffreychappell.com/q_a05.php

Ian