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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2667853
08/13/17 05:27 AM
08/13/17 05:27 AM
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That's what I compare it with. Subjectively. I have no interest in measuring end to end latency, topics already exist for this. Beyond a certain point it's more than adequate. However, comparing to the response on a real piano (latency-wise), PT is more similar to the real th8ng than CFX in my case. That's all. I'm sure there are some who achieved a better latency, but not many.
My initial question has been answered very well by others, whom I wholeheartedly thank, as well as by myself, after purchasing.
Bottom line, everybody has their preference which is perfectly valid. Mine is that PT doesn't have the impeccable sound of the CFX, notwithstanding resonances, and CFX isn't there yet when it comes to playing realism. Were I to cast the dice again, I would do so in the other direction.
I most likely will, when they have another sale which will include instrument packs too.

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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2667867
08/13/17 08:01 AM
08/13/17 08:01 AM
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On my setup (Mac Mini with USB-MIDI interface, using the internal audio), I can have a latency down to buffer size of 32 without problems, however it feels very unnatural, very direct and keys feel like "hard". I use a value of 128 that enters an ever so slight and non perceptible latency that however makes keys feel natural and "soft". Can't explain it really well but I am very convinced there's an optimal latency that isn't necessarily the lowest possible one. See for example how there's a "piano technician" setting on newer Kawais (and I believe Roland and Yamaha too) to simulate the slight mechanical delay that comes from the time needed for the hammer to reach the string after it is being thrown. This time isn't zero (and is furthermore dependent on the velocity with which you press the keys).

But in any case latency has never been an issue to me with sampled libraries even when I started using them like 15 years ago or so, I mean the there are no technical limitations to achieve audibly instant latency with CFX if that's what you're after. If you however have an irritably noticeable latency, something is definitely wrong with the audio settings.


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: R_B] #2667879
08/13/17 10:00 AM
08/13/17 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by R_B
As a point of reference it might be useful to compare latency to that experienced in a physical piano, which is NOT instantaneous.
e.g. all that is involved from key strike to sound received; action delay, hammer flight time, string vibration, sound board vibration and the coincidences of the overtones to produce the final sound.
I doubt that all of this takes less than 6 ms


This is complicated somewhat by how acoustic pianos work. From what I've seen, depending on how hard you strike the keys, the hammer hitting the string can occur before the key bottoms out, or slightly afterwards (though I understand it is as close to instantaneous as the human ear generally perceives).

Despite the real-world physics involved, I think that software pianos in general are still at a stage where they benefit from trying to minimize any latency at all (i.e., they're not instantaneous enough yet where it makes sense to try to introduce additional latency to simulate key strike velocity).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: R_B] #2667883
08/13/17 10:28 AM
08/13/17 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by R_B
As a point of reference it might be useful to compare latency to that experienced in a physical piano, which is NOT instantaneous.
e.g. all that is involved from key strike to sound received; action delay, hammer flight time, string vibration, sound board vibration and the coincidences of the overtones to produce the final sound.
I doubt that all of this takes less than 6 ms
We had a long and involved discussion of AP latency here last year. Here is the link

In the paper cited in the thread, it is shown that the tested pianos - S&S C, Yamaha disclavier, Bose SE290 - showed latencies of -4ms to +5ms, meaning that the sound occurs up to 4 milliseconds before the key bottoms out, and up to 5ms after the key bottoms out, depending on whether the pianist is playing ff or pp.

It could be said, IMHO, that the average latency of an AP is 0.

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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2667914
08/13/17 01:00 PM
08/13/17 01:00 PM
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Nothing easier. Just add an extra sensor and leave it to Pianoteq :))
Kidding, I don't think that's feasible and still have a reasonably accurate velocity measurement.
However, in the case of something like the kawai novus which will soon be available, the behaviour should be the same as in acoustics if I'm not mistaken. It has an kawai millennium action, only without the felt on the hammers, but with the same weight, and optical sensors measure the hammer strike, not the bottoming of the key.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2667924
08/13/17 02:02 PM
08/13/17 02:02 PM
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Nord never really reveal what their "virtual hammer action technology" means, but since it was announced with their first triple sensor action, I assume they probably model this hammer delay behavior correctly. In a triple sensor action there's a sensor that is located somewhere along the travel of the key before it touches the bottom, so a high velocity strike (if detected by this first sensor) can be made to trigger the sample earlier than waiting for the key to hit the bottom.

Really, you should try to alter the latency from the lowest possible to a bit slower in steps and see what I mean. Way too low latency makes the action react too direct, as though the keys hit a hard bottom, whereas a bit higher latency makes the keys feel soft bottoming. This is really weird but it makes a noticeable difference to the key feeling and shouldn't be underestimated. It's worth experimenting with.


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2667966
08/13/17 07:51 PM
08/13/17 07:51 PM
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I think even on regular 2-sensor systems, the bottom sensor trips before the key bottoms out on the keybed. I tested this before on a Yamaha GH action by blocking the keylip.

But those free ms definitely make a noticeable difference, particularly if you can hear the thump of the key bottoming out. On a fast DP you will hear the note strike before you hear the thump. On a slow one, you hear that thump first.

Every then, I find there is still a wide latitude within this range before it affects my playing. I do prefer the more immediate strike.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673116
09/06/17 07:02 AM
09/06/17 07:02 AM
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Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Online content
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Just picked up this on YouTube: PIANOTEQ vs 6

Trialled by Phil Best.



Demo in English [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=KNhOyyGACJc[/video]

Demo in Italian



Look how close this graph was to the release.

Release prediction graph (red line indicates vs. 6)


6.0.0
**All 49 instruments available in Pianoteq have been overhauled (the pianos, EPs, percussions, etc, including KIVIR).
**VST3 plugin format support has been added (plugin formats supported in Pianoteq 6: VST2, VST3, AU, AAX (64-bit), LV2).
**A MIDI playlist is now available.
**The MIDI auto-recording and archiving is improved and more configurable.
**The MIDI Mappings feature is more configurable -- MIDI Mapping can now be either global, or preset specific.
**Audio export in MP3 or FLAC format has been added.
**New tuning tool (available in Pianoteq Std and Pro only).
**A simple chord detector has been added.
**The Linux version is now available for ARM architectures

Seems like they've gone for consolidation/improvements on existing instruments rather than bringing in new ones.

Instrument demos (vs 6)

Listen to the YC5---it has changed considerably for the better.

Last edited by Doug M.; 09/06/17 07:18 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673119
09/06/17 07:29 AM
09/06/17 07:29 AM
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Hehe, it looks like the Model D has been authorised as well smile

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: mcoll] #2673121
09/06/17 07:36 AM
09/06/17 07:36 AM
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Cheshire, United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by mcoll
Hehe, it looks like the Model D has been authorised as well smile


Happy days


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673125
09/06/17 07:44 AM
09/06/17 07:44 AM
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Now maybe an introductory sale? 3hearts
Otherwise I'll have to stay put, given the very recent purchase of the CFX.. frown

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: mcoll] #2673127
09/06/17 08:04 AM
09/06/17 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mcoll
Now maybe an introductory sale? 3hearts
Otherwise I'll have to stay put, given the very recent purchase of the CFX.. frown


What would be useful now is:
1) A comparison of the Pianoteq 5 instruements vs the Pianoteq 6 instruments so we can hear the improvements.
2) A comparison video of Garritan CFX concert grand full version vs all Pianoteq 6 main pianos vs. a selection of Roland modelled pianos vs the Physis H1 vs and all popular sampled hardware digital pianos (Kawai, Nord, Korg, Yamaha, Casio, etc).

How will Pianoteq 6 measure up?


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673131
09/06/17 08:13 AM
09/06/17 08:13 AM
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
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Interesting. The Model B sounds nice. And the K2. These impressions are from Phil Best's video. But that is always my first impression. The fatigue soon sets in though. I've come to the conclusion that there's something false about the tail of the attack. It's tuning is too unwavering as the note develops and to my ears PianoTeq always sounds a bit false in the upper midrange as a result.

But like I said, they do sound good on first listening. Very passable. I look forward to more demos...


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673138
09/06/17 08:49 AM
09/06/17 08:49 AM
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Chicago, Illinois
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Thanks for the heads up. I just bought the Grotrian over the weekend. It's very nice and completes my collection of all their acoustics. But I only run the Stage version so it was an easy upgrade.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673142
09/06/17 08:55 AM
09/06/17 08:55 AM
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I got Pianoteq 4.5 when I first bought it; the upgrade to 5 was free, but it took some time before my old lappie would handle it, which it now does.
I'll just pretend I've got the new one. It's easier . . . . .Mind, I'd like the U3, but I can't play that at all at all . . ..just won't have it. Anybody else have this problem? I'm loathe to buy it when the free sample doesn't work . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673144
09/06/17 08:56 AM
09/06/17 08:56 AM
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Why do they do this to me? I was thinking of spending a hundred on the last VSTi (not a promise!) and eyeing the Wavesfactory Mercury on anniversary sale, then this happens.

Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in.


My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673161
09/06/17 10:21 AM
09/06/17 10:21 AM
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---
Pianoteq 6, just released today, is a major upgrade.

All of the instruments have been updated, and the acoustic pianos in particular, even the ones I used to ignore in favor of the more recent Model B and Grotrian Concert Royal, all now sound magnificent. Even the "ideal" acoustic piano K2, not modeled from an actual acoustic, now sounds very convincing. The Bluthner concert grand with its "aliquot" system (extra resonating strings), sounds incredibly lush and rich, and the U4 upright reminds me so much of my beloved Yamaha studio upright piano.

All of the pianos sound richly detailed, nuanced, and extremely realistic, and the two Steinways, the Model D (the character of which I loved but did not find convincing in comparison with the Grotrian in Pianoteq 5) and the shorter studio grand Model B, have both been improved to the extent that they now have the official authorization from Steinway & Sons.

There are also many new features in Pianoteq 6, and many improved features. All in all, an extremely impressive upgrade of what was already a very fine virtual-instrument application. Very pleased.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673165
09/06/17 10:35 AM
09/06/17 10:35 AM
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Downloading the trail now. . .

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Stephen_Doonan] #2673166
09/06/17 10:37 AM
09/06/17 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephen_Doonan
---
Pianoteq 6, just released today, is a major upgrade. All of the instruments have been updated, and the acoustic pianos in particular, even the ones I used to ignore in favor of the more recent Model B and Grotrian Concert Royal, all now sound magnificent. Even the "ideal" acoustic piano K2, not modeled from an actual acoustic, now sounds very convincing. The Bluthner concert grand with its "aliquot" system (extra resonating strings), sounds incredibly lush and rich, and the U4 upright reminds me so much of my beloved Yamaha studio upright piano.

All of the pianos sound richly detailed, nuanced, and extremely realistic, and the two Steinways, the Model D (the character of which I loved but did not find convincing in comparison with the Grotrian in Pianoteq 5) and the shorter studio grand Model B, have both been improved to the extent that they now have the official authorization from Steinway & Sons.

There are also many new features in Pianoteq 6, and many improved features. All in all, an extremely impressive upgrade of what was already a very fine virtual-instrument application. Very pleased.


I always thought the K2 was modeled from a Kawai, but they didn't have any official license so they couldn't say so. Some of the variations of the K2 are very nice.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673170
09/06/17 11:01 AM
09/06/17 11:01 AM
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This time around it took them over 3 years to finally release an upgrade. I hope the lower end has been improved. I believe that Pianoteq gurus once admitted that the lower end was the most difficult region to get right, and I agree with them.
So yes, 3 years in the making should bring about a huge-yet-also-subtle-but-not-too-muddled lower end.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673177
09/06/17 11:19 AM
09/06/17 11:19 AM
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Still sounds mudded and flat.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: kapelli] #2673183
09/06/17 11:34 AM
09/06/17 11:34 AM
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New Mexico US
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Originally Posted by kapelli
Still sounds mudded and flat.


I would probably question (not doubt, mind you, but at least question) your audio chain and headphones, or the ears they are attached to. smile

This latest version of Pianoteq and its updated instruments, to my ears anyway, sounds extremely crisp, detailed, resonant, nuanced and rich across the entire keyboard range, including the bass end.

The Pro version of Pianoteq, which I upgraded to previously with Pianoteq 5, allows for extensive and finely-controlled customization of nearly all aspects of the various instruments. The audio files produced by the piano instruments are so convincing that I would not be able to reliably distinguish them from recordings of actual, physical acoustic pianos, and it seems to me that it would be fairly difficult for others to do so.

However, in every group of people there will always exist some with differing or opposing views, and some who make a proud practice of being contrarian for its own sake. smile
---

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673187
09/06/17 11:40 AM
09/06/17 11:40 AM
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If anyone wants to do an A/B comparison, I rendered a MIDI of Chopin's Revolutionary Etude with the same preset in both Pianoteq 5 & 6 for the D4, Grotrian, K2, YC5, and Bluthner. No other effects added. Source MIDI included. WAVs are 96000hz/24-bit.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pl9rrq8neppcgsu/AAAt24ePkKrSCJJ6QlJ_Wfk0a?dl=0

Not sure if the first note being awkwardly loud on the attack is a rendering issue with my DAW or not.

I should probably do this for the EPs as well with a different MIDI.

I don't have the Model B, so I can't render a WAV of that one. Sorry.


Instruments: Roland RD-2000 + Roland A-49
Software: REAPER and MuseScore
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673190
09/06/17 11:54 AM
09/06/17 11:54 AM
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Sydney, Australia
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Sorry if this is has already been covered. But I'm thinking of getting this, but not sure the hardware needed to run it. The Pianoteq FAQ doesn't go into the specifics. So far I have:

- ES110
- Mackie CR4 studio monitors
- ASUS Laptop 4 cores, 8gb RAM
- Behringer UCA222 on order

Would this suffice or do I need to a more beefed up soundcard?


Kawai CA78 | Kawai ES110 | Kawai Upright | Alexander Herrmann Upright (Sold) | Korg SP170 (Sold) | JBL LSR305 // Pianoteq Stage // CFX Lite
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673196
09/06/17 12:10 PM
09/06/17 12:10 PM
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Sweden
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That sounds like a great setup.


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Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: HSFlik] #2673200
09/06/17 12:26 PM
09/06/17 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by HSFlik
If anyone wants to do an A/B comparison, I rendered a MIDI of Chopin's Revolutionary Etude with the same preset in both Pianoteq 5 & 6 for the D4, Grotrian, K2, YC5, and Bluthner. No other effects added. Source MIDI included. WAVs are 96000hz/24-bit.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pl9rrq8neppcgsu/AAAt24ePkKrSCJJ6QlJ_Wfk0a?dl=0

Not sure if the first note being awkwardly loud on the attack is a rendering issue with my DAW or not.

I should probably do this for the EPs as well with a different MIDI.

I don't have the Model B, so I can't render a WAV of that one. Sorry.


Ah do detect just a hint of ambience in Pianoteq 6 which seems not to be there in 5 . . . smile


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673204
09/06/17 12:46 PM
09/06/17 12:46 PM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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I've just downloaded the Pianoteq 6 Trial and tested it with all the presets of Steinway D and then some of the presets in Steinway B and Grotrian. I believe I should be eligible for Pianoteq 6 Pro license since I own a Pro license since the end of 2013, so should be eligible for a free upgrade but couldn't find how to do it.

Anyway, it seems there's indeed an improvement in the sound. But on the other hand there's still the slightly metallic sustain that has always been there. However the fatigue started kicking in again frown I switched to my favorite CFX at the end and it was better and more realistic.

I have a great respect for Modartt guys and don't want to spoil their parade, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. There are just people that love the modeled sound and others that get the fatigue and unfortunately I am within the latter group. But there's definitely an improvement!

Last edited by CyberGene; 09/06/17 12:46 PM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: HSFlik] #2673206
09/06/17 12:49 PM
09/06/17 12:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,026
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Online content
1000 Post Club Member
Doug M.  Online Content
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,026
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by HSFlik
If anyone wants to do an A/B comparison, I rendered a MIDI of Chopin's Revolutionary Etude with the same preset in both Pianoteq 5 & 6 for the D4, Grotrian, K2, YC5, and Bluthner. No other effects added. Source MIDI included. WAVs are 96000hz/24-bit.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pl9rrq8neppcgsu/AAAt24ePkKrSCJJ6QlJ_Wfk0a?dl=0

Not sure if the first note being awkwardly loud on the attack is a rendering issue with my DAW or not.

I should probably do this for the EPs as well with a different MIDI.

I don't have the Model B, so I can't render a WAV of that one. Sorry.


Thanks for uploading this!!!

Seems like the Grotrian v.5 and v.6 and the K2 v.5 and v.6 aren't very much different; whereas, the D4 and YC5 seem to have been improved quite a bit. You missed the Bluthner v.5 ;-)

Last edited by Doug M.; 09/06/17 12:49 PM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Stephen_Doonan] #2673210
09/06/17 12:54 PM
09/06/17 12:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 904
Milano
N
newer player Offline
500 Post Club Member
newer player  Offline
500 Post Club Member
N

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 904
Milano
Originally Posted by Stephen_Doonan
Originally Posted by kapelli
Still sounds mudded and flat.


I would probably question (not doubt, mind you, but at least question) your audio chain and headphones, or the ears they are attached to. smile

This latest version of Pianoteq and its updated instruments, to my ears anyway, sounds extremely crisp, detailed, resonant, nuanced and rich across the entire keyboard range, including the bass end.


Be nice.

I think PianoTeq 6 really nailed down the timing and dynamics on this. Up and down the keyboard plays exactly as my mind "envisions" and that is quite fun.

In hindsight, I suppose it is very difficult to "fully" address the non-linearity of the recording-mastering-sampling process whilst a model can be fully sorted (well for the factors that are utilized in the model). The timing, dynamics, tone of some sampled VIs seem a bit haphazard and I never quite know if it is my playing or the VI.

Latency is absolutely imperceptable on my mid-range laptop with headphones. If you find it too fast, you could just increase the buffer size I suppose. That is an effortless "problem" to solve.

The lower registers sounded like those of a cheap toy on first play with my main (good) headphones. Sounded much better when I tried with different headphones, earbuds, and some cheap computer speakers / big subwoofer. The (good) earbuds were just a bit shy on bass but sounded fine. The cheap (free) computer speakers sounded quite good. Not perfect but perhaps good enough.

I think the free trial is worth 15 minutes. If you don't like the sound try different headphones, earbuds and speakers as that seems to matter a lot for some reason.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2673212
09/06/17 12:56 PM
09/06/17 12:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,667
Chicago, Illinois
David Farley Offline
1000 Post Club Member
David Farley  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,667
Chicago, Illinois
This particular new feature seems to open the door to something people here seem to have often expressed an interest in, which is making possible a stand-alone Pianoteq-based keyboard:

"Pianoteq 6 facilitates your workflow by adding compatibility with the VST3 format and the ARM architecture (Linux version only, for example on Raspberry Pi 3 boards). VST3 is the latest plug-in platform developed by Steinberg, and is supported by many audio hosts. Compatibility with the ARM architecture means that Pianoteq 6 can be used with RISC based CPU's used in smaller Linux based consumer electronic devices."

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