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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2664857
07/29/17 07:02 PM
07/29/17 07:02 PM
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slobajudge Online content
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Probably, this is what I`m afraid of, but one step at the time, we are here now and Pianoteq 6 is close, I can not wait smile

Last edited by slobajudge; 07/29/17 07:04 PM.
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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2664870
07/29/17 09:24 PM
07/29/17 09:24 PM
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I love Pianoteq (I have 5 Standard) - but somehow find the tone and sound of my daughters FP-30 more satisfying

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2664898
07/30/17 01:58 AM
07/30/17 01:58 AM
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It's been over a year since I read that. Somebody was even betting on another thread it was going to be just another couple of months.
No version 6 yet. This is just the usual summer discount, and discounting before the new release doesn't make any sense in Pianoteq's case, because AFAIK they're offering free upgrading even for major version changes within 1 year from purchasing.
Anyway, I'm waiting with great interest for the new version. Still haven't decided if PT or CFX is the way to go. But I cannot try and see if the CFX's playability mimics a real piano close enough (though the sound seems flawless).

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2664915
07/30/17 03:54 AM
07/30/17 03:54 AM
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It may take a while indeed. Since you're in doubt between the CFX and PT, I recommend the CFX for sound and perhaps even playability (if your system is fast enough). I own both PT and the CFX, and personally I think PT still sounds a bit fake if you compare it to sampled pianos. However, the Blüthner comes pretty close to the real deal.

Can't wait for version 6! Who knows I will completely switch to PT.

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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: jefinho] #2664920
07/30/17 05:25 AM
07/30/17 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by jefinho
Since you're in doubt between the CFX and PT, I recommend the CFX for sound and perhaps even playability (if your system is fast enough). I own both PT and the CFX, and personally I think PT still sounds a bit fake if you compare it to sampled pianos.

+1
CFX is as playable as Pianoteq and as shocking as it might sound to some people, I actually find CFX more playable than Pianoteq. It’s been reiterated many times how modeled pianos are very playable while sampled are not but I think to some degree it’s an oversimplification. Playable means you’re in control of the instrument, you get inspired playing it and you have desire to play more. Well, I get that with CFX and not with Pianoteq.

Originally Posted by jefinho
Can't wait for version 6! Who knows I will completely switch to PT.

I’ve been telling this myself for the last 5 years and versions... I am losing faith already.


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2664923
07/30/17 06:42 AM
07/30/17 06:42 AM
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Pianoteq is simply not worth the price they ask, even with the discount.

It's a $50 package IMHO. Frankly you get two pianos, the Steinway D and the Kawai. I can't stand the sound of the K2 no matter what I do with it. The Steinway has about 2 settings that sound good to me. Frankly, you get one usable piano for $319.

Who cares if you can manipulate it to death. I just want a single awesome sounding piano that is easy to play. There's many good sampled pianos that do just that for far less.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: CyberGene] #2664925
07/30/17 07:06 AM
07/30/17 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
It’s been reiterated many times how modeled pianos are very playable while sampled are not but I think to some degree it’s an oversimplification. Playable means you’re in control of the instrument, you get inspired playing it and you have desire to play more. Well, I get that with CFX and not with Pianoteq.

That's exactly my view. I think most PT users, particularly beginners, would be surprised at how 'unplayable' they would find most APs. When I hear a PT performance I hear a sound which is uncontroversial, easy to manipulate, unexciting, almost invariably smoothed over with gobs of reverb - audio's most effective sticking plaster. And that's aside from its shortcomings in failing to achieve realism. A decent upright/grand has a characterful sound which is not always so easy to tame, not as 'playable' as one might hope. The better sample libraries get remarkably close, even if that entails having to develop the technique/s to get the best out of them.

I'm also suspicious of a retail model which tempts the 'completist' into buying - at very high cost - all the accessories in the expectation that therein lies the rainbow's end.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Fscotte] #2664935
07/30/17 08:21 AM
07/30/17 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Fscotte
Pianoteq is simply not worth the price they ask, even with the discount.

It's a $50 package IMHO. Frankly you get two pianos, the Steinway D and the Kawai. I can't stand the sound of the K2 no matter what I do with it. The Steinway has about 2 settings that sound good to me. Frankly, you get one usable piano for $319.

Who cares if you can manipulate it to death. I just want a single awesome sounding piano that is easy to play. There's many good sampled pianos that do just that for far less.

You can get the Stage version for €99. What you're buying is really a platform, rather than a specific piano sound.

I agree that the included pianos D4 and K2 are not much good, but you also get a whole load of historical pianos and various other instruments for free. The Grotrian and Bluethner packs at €49 each are a lot better, and very enjoyable.

Also the Pianoteq standalone software is much better than any other software piano out there.


Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2664946
07/30/17 09:37 AM
07/30/17 09:37 AM
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If you're referring to the PT user interface ... yes, it's quite good in ways that many others are weak and hard to use.

PT's interface is also overblown. There are far too many irrelevant adjustments. Fortunately most can be hidden.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2664947
07/30/17 09:43 AM
07/30/17 09:43 AM
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Maybe I am naive. I am looking forward to Pianoteq 6. I enjoy Pianoteq.

Based on these comments, I question what I hear. When I come home from
my lesson on a Steinway, the D4 sounds just like the one I left. Is this
foolery?

I also find that Pianoteq is not easy to tame at all. The Yamaha digital I had
and my current Kawai MP11 are so much easier to play than Pianoteq.

But you guys are the experts in dealing with piano sounds. Every time
Pianoteq comes up, I question my reality. I really don't know.


Kawai MP11 : JBL LSR305 : Focusrite 2i4 : Pianoteq Standard

We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams. Willy Wonka


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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: dire tonic] #2664951
07/30/17 09:54 AM
07/30/17 09:54 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,026
Cheshire, United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by CyberGene
It’s been reiterated many times how modeled pianos are very playable while sampled are not but I think to some degree it’s an oversimplification. Playable means you’re in control of the instrument, you get inspired playing it and you have desire to play more. Well, I get that with CFX and not with Pianoteq.

That's exactly my view. I think most PT users, particularly beginners, would be surprised at how 'unplayable' they would find most APs. When I hear a PT performance I hear a sound which is uncontroversial, easy to manipulate, unexciting, almost invariably smoothed over with gobs of reverb - audio's most effective sticking plaster. And that's aside from its shortcomings in failing to achieve realism. A decent upright/grand has a characterful sound which is not always so easy to tame, not as 'playable' as one might hope. The better sample libraries get remarkably close, even if that entails having to develop the technique/s to get the best out of them.

I'm also suspicious of a retail model which tempts the 'completist' into buying - at very high cost - all the accessories in the expectation that therein lies the rainbow's end.

One of the interesting things about Modartt's business model is that they are not focusing only on generating an accurate acoustic piano experience; rather, they are focused upon creating a variety of modelled instruments that they can sell as a bundle or as an add-on. From their perspective, how much is there really to be made selling one amazing product: there are only so many potential users, and the average price a user might be willing to spend on one modelled piano (no matter how good) limits profitability, hence limiting R&D budgets. Instead, having a greater diversity of products in different package options increases cross selling and generates new market.

Who is investing this big in modelling? Only Korg, Roland and PHYSIS create hardware that uses full modelling, and then only for a limited number of instruments. It seems to me that Pianoteq are being more ambitious by modelling percussive instruments, e-pianos, legacy instruments and more acoustic piano models.

I'm not surprised that sampling has kept up with modelling, especially when bits of modelling are being combined with sampling. However, when looking at the potential of modelling, that is far higher than sampling. Today, weather forecasts are generated from modelled systems because other approaches can't capture the complexities. Weather modelling has taken 40 years to manage a decent 5 day forecast and accurate 2-day forecasts. I think Pianoteq modelling will only develop in small evolutions and may take a while to really utilise modelling's potential.

Whether you presently prefer a sampled VST over Pianoteq or not, it's clear that competition is rising. Do Pianoteq keep expanding the product catalogue, or do they consolidate? I think Pianoteq 6 will include more new piano models. Unless sampling gets so far ahead, I don't see a good economic argument for Pianoteq to focus on making the D4 tonnes better.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: scorpio] #2664957
07/30/17 10:22 AM
07/30/17 10:22 AM
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Posts: 2,355
Sofia, Bulgaria
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CyberGene Online content
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Originally Posted by scorpio
Maybe I am naive. I am looking forward to Pianoteq 6. I enjoy Pianoteq.

Based on these comments, I question what I hear. When I come home from
my lesson on a Steinway, the D4 sounds just like the one I left. Is this
foolery?

I also find that Pianoteq is not easy to tame at all. The Yamaha digital I had
and my current Kawai MP11 are so much easier to play than Pianoteq.

But you guys are the experts in dealing with piano sounds. Every time
Pianoteq comes up, I question my reality. I really don't know.


As we say in Bulgaria: if there are many cars that appear to be driving wrong-way, it's maybe you who are in the wrong way wink

Last edited by CyberGene; 07/30/17 10:26 AM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: scorpio] #2664968
07/30/17 11:01 AM
07/30/17 11:01 AM
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slobajudge Online content
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Originally Posted by scorpio
Maybe I am naive. I am looking forward to Pianoteq 6. I enjoy Pianoteq.

Based on these comments, I question what I hear. When I come home from
my lesson on a Steinway, the D4 sounds just like the one I left. Is this
foolery?

I also find that Pianoteq is not easy to tame at all. The Yamaha digital I had
and my current Kawai MP11 are so much easier to play than Pianoteq.

But you guys are the experts in dealing with piano sounds. Every time
Pianoteq comes up, I question my reality. I really don't know.

You are not naive, and believe me for something like Piano vst there are no experts anywhere. I also enjoy Pianoteq. There is no foolery for something you liked. In this case D4 included all modeling real parameters to sound like Steinway D. It is better with every version. Compare to only sound in samples (very subjective) D4 is x2 real piano. Most people here play Pianoteq only short time to try it from time to time or to little escape to something else and then bring not so good conclusions because of habit they adopt earlier. The same like me before. I give them 1 months to play only Pianoteq and then let them try to back to samples. Then they will realize that what was a piano horse earlier now behave more like a donkey and then will ask a question what happened ? Haha smile Just ride your horse.

Last edited by slobajudge; 07/30/17 11:42 AM.
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2664985
07/30/17 11:46 AM
07/30/17 11:46 AM
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Alexander Borro Offline
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Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by scorpio
Maybe I am naive. I am looking forward to Pianoteq 6. I enjoy Pianoteq.

Based on these comments, I question what I hear. When I come home from
my lesson on a Steinway, the D4 sounds just like the one I left. Is this
foolery?

I also find that Pianoteq is not easy to tame at all. The Yamaha digital I had
and my current Kawai MP11 are so much easier to play than Pianoteq.

But you guys are the experts in dealing with piano sounds. Every time
Pianoteq comes up, I question my reality. I really don't know.

You are not naive, and believe me for something like Piano vst there are no experts anywhere. I also enjoy Pianoteq. There is no foolery for something you liked. In this case D4 included all modeling real parameters to sound like Steinway D. It is better with every version. Compare to only sound in samples (very subjective) D4 is x2 real piano. Most people here play Pianoteq only short time to try it from time to time or to little escape to something else and then bring not so good conclusions because of habit they adopt earlier. The same like me before. I give them 1 months to play only Pianoteq and then let them try to back to samples. Just drive your car where you want.


There was a period where I used pianoteq pretty much always for a year or more, nothing else, very occasionally ivory ACD, I have not touched pteq in months now for some time. I look forward though to what the future may bring.

I am still of the view there is a place for both and one can enjoy both for different things qualities they have. Perhaps we have phases, depending on the repertoire we play and what we want out of the instrument.

In the last 6 months or so however I have been firmly planted in sample land once again, and I have no desire to open up pteq for anything. Especially after having adding the CFX lite too last month, but I've not spend much time with CFX as yet, using the ravens mostly at the moment and loving that. The CFX time will come no doubt.

Initial impressions of the CFX however ....


Last edited by Alexander Borro; 07/30/17 11:47 AM.

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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2664986
07/30/17 11:52 AM
07/30/17 11:52 AM
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Thats OK, I watch both worlds and will try and play everything that I found to inspired me no matter engine. My door is not close for sampling, just not inspiring to me at the moment and I think I have all samples pianos. I play only classical and there is no compromise with playability for me. Ravenscroft is not my idea of piano and when I put it against Pianoteq, he beat Ravenscroft every time in a terms of sound, playability, functioning, etc, but thats me. That little difference in playability is a lot for me.

Last edited by slobajudge; 07/30/17 12:03 PM.
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2664995
07/30/17 12:26 PM
07/30/17 12:26 PM
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France
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Quote
I'm not surprised that sampling has kept up with modelling, especially when bits of modelling are being combined with sampling. However, when looking at the potential of modelling, that is far higher than sampling. Today, weather forecasts are generated from modelled systems because other approaches can't capture the complexities. Weather modelling has taken 40 years to manage a decent 5 day forecast and accurate 2-day forecasts. I think Pianoteq modelling will only develop in small evolutions and may take a while to really utilise modelling's potential.


I suppose sampling photos from satellite is limited because we can only predict yesterday's meteo. When using a piano we can assume the C4 from yesterday is the same than the C4 from today and the yesterday record is what we need.

Then we can get 88 perfect recorded notes... when using chords or worse 220 strings excited by sympathetic resonance... it become harder since we can't record every combination of notes, and the recorded damper pressed notes can't switch easily to plain notes while we release the pedal (I know 2 VST which use damper pressed records and have this issue).

Perhaps an hybrid solution (modelisation+records) is the best way (the Pianoteq patent talk about attack records).

Anyway, when comparing two products, only what I hear while playing matters. wink

Last edited by Frédéric L; 07/30/17 01:41 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: slobajudge] #2665006
07/30/17 12:51 PM
07/30/17 12:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,182
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by scorpio
Maybe I am naive. I am looking forward to Pianoteq 6. I enjoy Pianoteq.

Based on these comments, I question what I hear. When I come home from
my lesson on a Steinway, the D4 sounds just like the one I left. Is this
foolery?

I also find that Pianoteq is not easy to tame at all. The Yamaha digital I had
and my current Kawai MP11 are so much easier to play than Pianoteq.

But you guys are the experts in dealing with piano sounds. Every time
Pianoteq comes up, I question my reality. I really don't know.

You are not naive, and believe me for something like Piano vst there are no experts anywhere. I also enjoy Pianoteq. There is no foolery for something you liked. In this case D4 included all modeling real parameters to sound like Steinway D. It is better with every version. Compare to only sound in samples (very subjective) D4 is x2 real piano. Most people here play Pianoteq only short time to try it from time to time or to little escape to something else and then bring not so good conclusions because of habit they adopt earlier. The same like me before. I give them 1 months to play only Pianoteq and then let them try to back to samples. Then they will realize that what was a piano horse earlier now behave more like a donkey and then will ask a question what happened ? Haha smile Just ride your horse.


Spot on. Pianoteq, or even most other software pianos are so different from the pianos embedded in your console; they're bound to sound alien at first. And the Roland or Yamaha sound you initially loved so much that you bought it, will become . . . puerile after a time.
But banish the software usurper, and you'll begin to love your resident donkey again.
It's worth noting that the Grotrian seems to be a decent step up from the D4 which may indicate substantial improvements to come. I use it more and more; it's good on trills.
I'm now just waiting for Roland to build a piano controller based on the PH50 keyboard . . . . .


Last edited by peterws; 07/30/17 12:52 PM.

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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: CyberGene] #2665037
07/30/17 02:23 PM
07/30/17 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by jefinho
Since you're in doubt between the CFX and PT, I recommend the CFX for sound and perhaps even playability (if your system is fast enough). I own both PT and the CFX, and personally I think PT still sounds a bit fake if you compare it to sampled pianos.

+1
CFX is as playable as Pianoteq and as shocking as it might sound to some people, I actually find CFX more playable than Pianoteq. It’s been reiterated many times how modeled pianos are very playable while sampled are not but I think to some degree it’s an oversimplification. Playable means you’re in control of the instrument, you get inspired playing it and you have desire to play more. Well, I get that with CFX and not with Pianoteq.

Your signature indicates you are using the Lite version of CFX. If you get all of this satisfaction from the Lite version have you no desire to see how much better it might be with the full version? Looking at the comparison chart all the full version appears to offer are additional mic positions. Are those of no interest to you?

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2665050
07/30/17 03:30 PM
07/30/17 03:30 PM
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Full version only offers more mic perspectives compared to the lite. However the only perspective I am interested in is the binaural head mic. In another thread I’ve compared a rendering I did playing a Chopin prelude with Lite and then others exported it with various software pianos, including the binaural head and it didn’t sound like it’s worth the high price. Beside, the full version is not downloadable, I need to order a USB-flash drive from Garritan and it ships from US while I live in Europe so there’s huge cost involved when counting import taxes and shipping. The other way is to order the full version from Thomann, but then I can’t have the upgrade price from Lite to Full but need to purchase Full at the full price. All that is too much of a hassle to me and I am already so happy with Lite that I don’t find it worth it.


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: CyberGene] #2665093
07/30/17 06:55 PM
07/30/17 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Full version only offers more mic perspectives compared to the lite. However the only perspective I am interested in is the binaural head mic. In another thread I’ve compared a rendering I did playing a Chopin prelude with Lite and then others exported it with various software pianos, including the binaural head and it didn’t sound like it’s worth the high price. Beside, the full version is not downloadable, I need to order a USB-flash drive from Garritan and it ships from US while I live in Europe so there’s huge cost involved when counting import taxes and shipping. The other way is to order the full version from Thomann, but then I can’t have the upgrade price from Lite to Full but need to purchase Full at the full price. All that is too much of a hassle to me and I am already so happy with Lite that I don’t find it worth it.

Is there something you recall which you could hint at to track down this thread? I would like to hear this performance processed by several plugins. I searched your post history and could not find where this was done.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2665135
07/31/17 01:09 AM
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Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: CyberGene] #2665144
07/31/17 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene

Thank you for the detailed response and link follow up. That was interesting. If the MIDI file were still around I would add a few more to that list.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2665182
07/31/17 07:43 AM
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I'm glad I have opened this can of worms - as if it weren't already open smile
Thank you jefinho, CyberGene and everybody else who provided extensive comparisons and expressed their preference!

I have played for a few months now the Pianoteq Bluthner on trial, with some changes to make it brighter and I love it.
I have tried different libraries in the past, but wasn't pleased with any of their response (pedaling, half-pedaling, repedaling, lifting the sustain, resonances, uneven and unrealistic velocity response and dynamic range).
Sadly, the CFX doesn't have a demo, so I have no possibility to try it. How does it handle everything listed above?
I play mainly classical, mid to high difficulty. The playability is what concerns me most.

I was waiting for a sale for quite a while now, hoping to make up my mind. About this - in the past weren't the PT instrument packs on sale too?
I see the CFX Lite is also on sale on sweetwater for 60$ (vs 175e ±50e the Bluethner).

A question for everybody owning both PT and CFX (lite):
Strictly for playing authenticity (velocity uniformity and realism, pedal response, resonances) what would be your pick?

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2665186
07/31/17 08:06 AM
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I own both Pianoteq and CFX and really prefer CFX as I said. There's one CFX fix that is needed though. The re-pedaling out of the box is way too unforgiving so after a mail exchange with the CFX main developer I was given instructions on how to change a configuration file to make re-pedaling timings as I wanted and I've published those settings here on the forum, so let me know if you can't find them.

With that particular fix CFX is extremely playable and I use it mainly to play Chopin (ballades, nocturnes, preludes, waltzes, the easier etudes, etc.) where I apply a lot of half-pedaling, repedaling, subtle touch, etc. The only thing I don't quite like in CFX is the softest samples kind of have some slight noise to them in the background which I think might be due to the recording equipment/preamps/mics or whatever. Other than that, it's a lovely piano.


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: mcoll] #2665187
07/31/17 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by mcoll
I'm glad I have opened this can of worms - as if it weren't already open smile
Thank you jefinho, CyberGene and everybody else who provided extensive comparisons and expressed their preference!

I have played for a few months now the Pianoteq Bluthner on trial, with some changes to make it brighter and I love it.
I have tried different libraries in the past, but wasn't pleased with any of their response (pedaling, half-pedaling, repedaling, lifting the sustain, resonances, uneven and unrealistic velocity response and dynamic range).
Sadly, the CFX doesn't have a demo, so I have no possibility to try it. How does it handle everything listed above?
I play mainly classical, mid to high difficulty. The playability is what concerns me most.

I was waiting for a sale for quite a while now, hoping to make up my mind. About this - in the past weren't the PT instrument packs on sale too?
I see the CFX Lite is also on sale on sweetwater for 60$ (vs 175e ±50e the Bluethner).

A question for everybody owning both PT and CFX (lite):
Strictly for playing authenticity (velocity uniformity and realism, pedal response, resonances) what would be your pick?


For 60$, if I were so interested, I might just buy it, try it, and if I didn't like it, sell it on eBay to recoup 40$.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2665196
07/31/17 09:07 AM
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@CyberGene: Thank you for the detailed answer. I remember you posting the details for the mod and I'll be sure to make them if I go for the CFX.

@ Doug M.: I'm not sure it's reselable, and even if it was, before going through the hassle, I would really like to hear the opinion of people who have experienced both. I know it's not a lot of money in some countries, but incomes vary, to the point where the price of PT may equate to one's monthly income, so trying to get a good idea of each product may be more important than you think smile

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2667733
08/12/17 09:06 AM
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To come back to the debate that I launched: I have purchased CFX lite for 60$ that same night. Unfortunately, I haven't had that much time, but have played it a couple of hours by now.
This is definitely the best sample I ever played, but even so, I have to say that I feel the same as slobajudge and scorpio (and others). CFX isn't quite there as far as playability goes. And pianoteq maybe isn't there for sound (although with some models I feel it's quite close). Both preferences are perfectly valid, and it will vary from person to person. It appears mine lies with pianoteq.

The CFX does sound absolutely great, but it has its flaws. First of all, my buffer is set to 64, I have a very good SSD and 16gb RAM, end even so, I feel the difference in latency between PT and CFX. I have adjusted to it, but it's most apparent in works such as Asturias and Cm Prelude from WTC I. Secondly, there's the resonances, which aren't up to the same level, though very good compared to other samples. The pedal noise is a bit weird, because it is heard every time you pass a certain point with the pedal, but it is heard with the same intensity, regardless of the speed you depress the pedal with. I have also perceived the "white noise", as CyberGene called it, in piano-pianissimo samples and it's quite bothersome in the moonlight sonata for instance. There's also the lack of staccato - this cannot be achieved. I think the dynamic range is unrealistic at default setting and I'm not pleased with what I've come up with. And other aspects that don't come to mind. I will thoroughly read the CFX threads to see what settings others use and make further adjustments.

All this being said, when playing for an audience or recording, I think the CFX does a fantastic job. It does indeed sound great. But when playing for myself, PT was a lot more realistic in feeling, it made me feel like I was in front of a real grand. This is immersive too and the sound is fantastic, but the way it plays isn't at the same level. I can be immersed when playing the CFX too, just not the same though.

In conclusion, although I don't regret the buy and I think it will get plenty of use, I wish I would've tried it before hand and put my money towards Pianoteq. Last year they had an anniversary 30% for standard as well as for any instrument pack. For the time being, I made my buy, but I will wait for such a sale again, because I'd go for Bluethner +/- Model B, or maybe some other piano. When I tried them, the Model D and the K2 sadly didn't convince me.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: mcoll] #2667755
08/12/17 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mcoll
The CFX does sound absolutely great, but it has its flaws. First of all, my buffer is set to 64, I have a very good SSD and 16gb RAM, end even so, I feel the difference in latency between PT and CFX.


With a buffer of 64, round-trip latency should be quite low; I measured round trip latency of well under 6ms from keystrike to sound output on my headphones for Garritan CFX (44.1 kHz with buffer set to 64). Pianoteq is very efficient so getting this performance from Garritan CFX required some optimization with LatencyMon software & RME ASIO drivers.

- I'm sure you already know, if you can boost the sample rate (say from 44.1kHz to 88.2 kHz) without crackles, your latency will drop significantly. Free LatencyMon software and good ASIO drivers might help you optimize.

- For an experiment, if you move from loudspeakers to headphones, that should knock off another 3-4ms of latency, as sound travels about 3ms per metre.

Originally Posted by mcoll
I think the dynamic range is unrealistic at default setting and I'm not pleased with what I've come up with. And other aspects that don't come to mind. I will thoroughly read the CFX threads to see what settings others use and make further adjustments.


Many users have posted their settings. Make sure to fix the pedaling with CyberGenes simple patch. I

Philip Johnston recorded some nice pieces with the settings below. You will see his dynamic range at 89%. He also said he adjusts the velocity curve based on what he is playing; it seems most other users keep the default and a few something very close to default. Interestingly, not sure Philip is actually monitoring his playing with Garritan CFX

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...garritan-cfx-lite-59-95.html#Post2666876

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2667835
08/13/17 01:01 AM
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Yes, the latency is indeed very low, still, it doesn't feel as immediate as Pianoteq or the internal engine. I'm playing using headphones and a pretty good interface (Alva nanoface) with dedicated asio drivers. Maybe I'll try taking it to 88.2khz, but I doubt the CPU will take it without crackles.
Anyway, the comparison was between cfx and pt, using the same settings. And it probably has more to do with the way the sound is generated and the immediacy of playing it back, than with the actual latency in itself.

Fixing the pedalling was the first thing I did, thank you for the suggestion! I'm sure I would've found it simply weird on the default setting, I've experimented the described behaviour in other samples.

As for Philip, he"s an amazing player, better than I ever dream to be. I've followed all his recordings. I'd be really interested for him to test PT and share impressions smile
But he invests a lot of time in the recordings, for just that purpose - recording - whereas I am interested in playing the vst. If my memory serves me right, his recordings are put together playing the n3 internal sound engine and afterwards using the midi with the cfx. Adjusting the velocity according to the piece is an interesting concept, and makes sense in this scenario, but I'm not sure I'd go that route for actually playing the vst. It's unrealistic, especially if you want your experience to be as 'real' as possible. More 'real' for listeners, less 'real' for playing. As for the dynamic range, I'm thinking it undergoes some compression afterwards, because for live playing, even the default 50 seems unrealistic to me (I think I've set it at 37,notbsure), but maybe that's just me. It may be that the dynamic range is more accentuated in some mic perspectives and less obvious in others, but that's just me speculating.

Thank you very much for the settings link! I intend to thoroughly read through other's settings and experiences with the cfx to get the best out of it.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2667850
08/13/17 04:57 AM
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As a point of reference it might be useful to compare latency to that experienced in a physical piano, which is NOT instantaneous.
e.g. all that is involved from key strike to sound received; action delay, hammer flight time, string vibration, sound board vibration and the coincidences of the overtones to produce the final sound.
I doubt that all of this takes less than 6 ms

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