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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676598
09/20/17 07:52 PM
09/20/17 07:52 PM
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karvala Offline
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A double blind test of *what* though? Suppose someone presents some musical excerpts on Pianoteq and some on a sampled piano. If we ignore for a moment the myriad of problems around the details (e.g. what sampled piano, what settings used in Pianoteq and the sampled piano, is the same midi piece to be rendered on both and if so how do you choose the midi file to be used ,etc.), there remains the fundamental issue of what exactly you are testing. Are you asking what people prefer? In which case, it amounts to a popularity contest for one or the other - the Pianoteq fans will vote for the Pianoteq stimulus and the sample fans will vote for the sampled stimulus, and both will remain intransigent. Neither side are going to agree that the piece of the other side is "better" just because it's more popular. If you're not asking for a preference, then what? You could ask which sounds closer to an acoustic piano, but I suspect the vote would remain split along the same lines. If you're asking "can you tell the difference" then of course people will be able to; I think the majority of people on both sides of the argument would be fairly convinced they could identify which is Pianoteq and which is the sampled piano, otherwise they would have no reason to assert the superiority of one or the other. So double blind methodology is fine, but I don't see what the test could actually consist of that would be regarded as proof by either side.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676603
09/20/17 08:05 PM
09/20/17 08:05 PM
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sullivang Offline
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A range of material. And if the Pianoteq fans vote for Pianoteq, that could mean either of two things: they've successfully identified that it's Pianoteq, and because they want Pianoteq to win, they decide to vote for it ;^), or, they in fact do NOT know it's Pianoteq, and genuinely prefer it.

So yes, the test would ideally include non Pianoteq fans. laugh

Yes, the two questions you asked are the ones I would be most interested in:
- which they prefer out of three (Pianoteq, sampled, or real)
- which they think is the most likely to be the real thing (including a ranking)

I've said this before... Scarbee did a test like this with his original Rhodes. More people guessed that his sampled Rhodes was the real one, and he jokingly declared that his was more real than a real one. laugh

So, with a range of material, and range of different listeners, it would be of some benefit.

Another test could be done using live playing.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 09/20/17 08:10 PM.
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676605
09/20/17 08:11 PM
09/20/17 08:11 PM
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karvala Offline
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Okay. I'd be happy to take part in such a test. smile


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676606
09/20/17 08:13 PM
09/20/17 08:13 PM
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sullivang Offline
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Me too. I'm pretty sure I'd fail in a fair few of the comparisons. However, if the test included recordings of real pianos of the type I really like, I'm confident that I would be able to pick the difference between the real thing and Pianoteq.

Greg.

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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: sullivang] #2676610
09/20/17 08:24 PM
09/20/17 08:24 PM
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Gombessa Offline
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Originally Posted by sullivang
Re some kind of proof that Pianoteq is as good as or better than sampled pianos, double blind testing would be pretty effective I think.


I don't want to say "better" or "worse" but I can tell there are differences between different instruments and I know which I prefer:

Piano 1

Piano 2


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: sullivang] #2676617
09/20/17 09:06 PM
09/20/17 09:06 PM
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Raleigh, North Carolina
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I'd be looking for a very different test.

Since so many have claimed that PT sounds like the real thing, let's record the real thing (Steinway or Grotrian) and record the PT implementation of same. Then A/B test them.

No need to ask which is preferred or which is better. Instead the question is "do people hear a difference?"
Originally Posted by sullivang
A range of material. And if the Pianoteq fans vote for Pianoteq, that could mean either of two things: they've successfully identified that it's Pianoteq, and because they want Pianoteq to win, they decide to vote for it ;^), or, they in fact do NOT know it's Pianoteq, and genuinely prefer it.

So yes, the test would ideally include non Pianoteq fans.


Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676623
09/20/17 10:15 PM
09/20/17 10:15 PM
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sullivang Offline
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MacMacMac: Fair enough. (I personally am also interested in what people prefer, aside from authenticity). In your test, you'd still have to decide how you're going to weed out Pianoteq bias. For example, a person biased towards Pianoteq might always answer "no, I don't hear a difference". There would have to be some tests where the correct answer SHOULD be "yes, I do hear a difference".

Maybe a better question to ask would be "which do you think is the real piano?" - it might be easier to eliminate bias with that question, because if the person answers "Pianoteq" much more often than not, that would at the very least prove there was a difference, even if they genuinely think it is more real.

Greg.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676625
09/20/17 10:36 PM
09/20/17 10:36 PM
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sullivang Offline
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Btw, my test still doesn't weed out those that are h ell-bent (space is to get through the naughty word filter - sigh) on Pianoteq winning - a savvy Pianoteq person who accurately identifies Pianoteq in each test could ensure that they answer the tests EITHER way statistically evenly. ;^) That's why I still think the test should ideally include those with no prior experience with Pianoteq, or for that matter, sampled pianos. Include some everyday normal people. ;^)

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 09/20/17 10:37 PM.
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676635
09/21/17 01:03 AM
09/21/17 01:03 AM
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Northern England.
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Now I know why folk should have to take a basic intelligence test to vote in a General Election. . . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: peterws] #2676651
09/21/17 02:46 AM
09/21/17 02:46 AM
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by peterws
Now I know why folk should have to take a basic intelligence test to vote in a General Election. . . . .


Indeed. This one man, one vote nonsense has got to stop. I mean, how can someone else's vote be worth as much as mine? It's insane. I'm all for everyone having a vote but their vote needs to be weighted according to who they are and what they know. That would be determined by me. I'm offering myself up to serve our state. No need to thank me.


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676672
09/21/17 06:00 AM
09/21/17 06:00 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 114
Russia, Taganrog
Andrei Kuznetsov Offline
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This test would be a very questionable effort. While I would not be very sure hearing the difference between, say WAV vs. MP3, I pretty much 100% sure I can easily tell if it is a sampled piano or Pianoteq. Meanwhile, it would be much more difficult for me to tell the difference between a good recording (not just some random MIDI from the internet) of a sampled piano vs. real one. And, of course, also the settings for the Pianoteq - virtual microphones positions, reverb, etc. I tend to set it more towards the archive recordings, something like the ones that was made in 1940-s, to some extend. I mean if you emulate a bad conditions recording with Pianoteq - then it could be virtually indistinguishable from a bad conditions real thing recording. And I really like to use it this way - no irony here. Despite of all being said I'm a huge fan of Pianoteq btw.

Also, would never say that Pianoteq Steinway emulations are just nothing like a real Steinways. Come on, I clearly hear the flavor. You could argue that the difference is still like between a real peach vs. peach lollipop, but still you can clearly taste it.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676678
09/21/17 06:59 AM
09/21/17 06:59 AM
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Groove On Offline
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Leaving aside high-end, well-maintained, "I could buy 3 cars with that" type of pianos - does anyone think that Pianoteq 6 sounds a heck of a lot better than many of the regular everyday slightly neglected acoustic pianos out there?


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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676693
09/21/17 08:38 AM
09/21/17 08:38 AM
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I listened to a few classical Pianoteq Steinway D demos and the same pieces being played with a real Steinway on Youtube. The reverb settings are very different. The real Steinways were played in concert halls while the Pianoteq pieces were utilizing a concert recording and had MUCH less reverb. The mic settings are almost certainly very different. Still, the Pianoteq demos sounds pretty convincing to me. When I hear them, I'm thinking, "That sounds like a Steinway D with very low reverb and different mic placement from the one I just heard on Youtube.

I think that if I heard a real Steinway and Pianoteq back to back with the same eq, reverb, mic settings, I could tell which is the real Steinway, and I would be convinced that the Pianoteq sounds much like a Steinway.


Roland FP-90; Pianoteq 6 + many add-ons; 2 Yamaha HS8s; ATH-M50X and Samson SR850 headphones; Xenyx Q802USB interface. 2; I make a living playing a Yamaha PSR-S970 with FBT Maxx 2a's, Crowne Headset Mic. I also play guitar.
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676696
09/21/17 08:53 AM
09/21/17 08:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,104
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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I agree that Pianoteq approximates whatever model they try to emulate, e.g. Steinway, however that's more a static approximation. However when I listen to a whole piece recorded with Pianoteq or just play it, I hear the modeled artifacts in the sustain/decay of the notes and that spoils it. What I find strange is that playing just single notes or single chords is kind of OK and I really like it. It's when I start playing lines and repeating notes/chords that I start feeling something very monotonous and boxy, as though the sound is coming from a box or from the other room. It's very difficult to describe these effects with words but they are so easily apparent that I can recognize them in a blind test, at least as of this version of Pianoteq.


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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676697
09/21/17 08:59 AM
09/21/17 08:59 AM
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Posts: 3,104
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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P.S. Yep, just opened the demo page and started listening to the first Steinway D demo: F. Chopin - Nocturne Op. 48 No. 2. The first few notes start very promising and I even thought "am I really a hater, this sounds like the real thing" but right away the melodic line starts and I felt this typical metallic synthetic quality in the sustain.


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Groove On] #2676709
09/21/17 10:10 AM
09/21/17 10:10 AM
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Russia, Taganrog
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Originally Posted by Groove On
Leaving aside high-end, well-maintained, "I could buy 3 cars with that" type of pianos - does anyone think that Pianoteq 6 sounds a heck of a lot better than many of the regular everyday slightly neglected acoustic pianos out there?

There are lots of folks around saying they would always take the worst real piano over the best digital one just because it is real. I'm a classically trained pianist, I have a quite good old Bechstein grand and an Upright at my place. I practice every day (almost) and 98% of time it is Privia / Pianoteq. In comparison: a) it feels like a great grand in a great concert hall, give me that overall expensive vibe b) it is more controllable, more even, have better dynamic response c) it saves my real pianos from abuse. Can make the negative points list upon a request also.

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676712
09/21/17 10:19 AM
09/21/17 10:19 AM
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Can you make the negative points list?

Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676718
09/21/17 10:40 AM
09/21/17 10:40 AM
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Portugal
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toddy Offline
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Would love to hear your negative points, too. But, in the mean time, hallelujah to your positive ones!


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

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Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676719
09/21/17 10:45 AM
09/21/17 10:45 AM
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It's always nice to hear an experienced perspective that is apart from the "pixel peeper" scrutiny that the internet promotes. Would love to hear your negative list as well, Andrei, as well as any thoughts you may have on other VSTs you've tried.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Pianoteq 6! [Re: Pete14] #2676722
09/21/17 10:57 AM
09/21/17 10:57 AM
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Europe
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toddy +1

@Andrei - I've listened to your channel, those are some great recordings. You can indeed impart an experienced perspective! Out of curiosity, did you consider upgrading your action? And how come you didn't? Did you try PT on some of the top actions? What were your impressions?
Roland FP90, HP601 with PHA50, CA67 with GF2, MP11 with GF and VPC1 with RM3-II come to mind for top actions at their lowest price, although I'm not particularly fond of the last on the list.

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