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Re: Kenya burns stockpile of ivory [Re: PhilipInChina] #2536145
05/02/16 06:54 PM
05/02/16 06:54 PM
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So how much is the demand? Is it less than the existing stockpile of ivory, including that which is on living animals? Perhaps not!


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Re: Kenya burns stockpile of ivory [Re: accordeur] #2536170
05/02/16 09:29 PM
05/02/16 09:29 PM
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I don't know but given that many tons were destroyed a few days ago the price will remain buoyant and poaching will continue to be attractive to people who don't mind doing it.


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Re: Kenya burns stockpile of ivory [Re: accordeur] #2536243
05/03/16 06:55 AM
05/03/16 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilipInChina
I don't know but given that many tons were destroyed a few days ago the price will remain buoyant and poaching will continue to be attractive to people who don't mind doing it.

That's the thing about law-breakers/criminals; they don't mind doing it. Most never get caught, depending on what vice law enforcement is concentrating on at the time.

This is wayyyyy OT, but semi-related, I suppose. I worked at a GM assembly plant for several years. One thing I noticed and was astonished to see/witness was the illegal vice that went on in that plant. Illegal gambling, loan-sharking, drugs, prostitution, black-market stolen goods, you name it. And, as long as vehicle sales were good and the assembly line was moving, the company turned a blind eye to most of the illegal activities.

On occasion, during a recession or lull in vehicle sales, the company would hire undercover cops to come in and help clean things up a bit, but it was not an ongoing process.

So, yes, Philip, there are plenty of individuals who don't mind breaking the law or killing an endangered animal to harvest it's body parts high in demand on the black-market.

Were it not for some semblance of law and order in the world, we would live in a chaotic society where only the strongest survive.

I, for one, hope the authorities keep up the pressure on the elephant poachers.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Kenya burns stockpile of ivory [Re: accordeur] #2536245
05/03/16 07:01 AM
05/03/16 07:01 AM
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I agree entirely. Elephant poaching should be stopped. I am simply unconvinced that keeping the price of ivory high will have anything but the opposite effect.


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Re: Kenya burns stockpile of ivory [Re: PhilipInChina] #2536270
05/03/16 09:11 AM
05/03/16 09:11 AM
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I am not convinced that anything would lower the price of ivory.


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Re: Kenya burns stockpile of ivory [Re: accordeur] #2536374
05/03/16 03:47 PM
05/03/16 03:47 PM
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I'm sure that criminalizing old pianos won't help elephants at all.



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Re: Kenya burns stockpile of ivory [Re: accordeur] #2536429
05/03/16 06:35 PM
05/03/16 06:35 PM
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Burning the stockpile had no impact on the ivory market, at least in terms of supply, demand, or prices, because it's already been removed from the market (unless it's being pilfered and sold), so the market value for ivory already reflects its absence.

Selling it to protect living elephants would probably be a bad idea. First of all, it's effectively contraband, and would be unethical for their government to engage in the trade of it (since it's illegal for others to do so). Plus, although a stockpile that large would likely drive prices down for a while, the increased accessibility might actually increase long-term demand, and drive prices back up later. Minimally, the "normal" dynamic would return once it's consumed anyway.

It's also difficult to know what impact the stockpile could have, because without concrete numbers we can't know how large it is relative to the existing market for ivory.

I think the problem with trying to split hairs about ivory taken from dead elephants versus illegally poached ivory, is that there is no cost effective way to tell the difference.

In the world we live, "they" have decided that ivory is "bad," and that's that. It's going to remain problematic for people who have it, or want it. The piano industry is not complicit, of course, but ivory keys will probably become more and more problematic, or at least a red-tape hassle to deal with.

My piano has a pretty nice set of ivories on it, no chips, but a couple of hairline cracks. I continue to consider replacing them with something synthetic. Partly because of the above, and partly because I think for the price of repairing a few keys, I could probably have all of them replaced with a modern keytop.


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Re: Kenya burns stockpile of ivory [Re: Retsacnal] #2536449
05/03/16 08:01 PM
05/03/16 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
.... I continue to consider replacing them with something synthetic. ...


Me, too. I want to go with powder blue naturals and bright maroon sharps, just to make it clear it's not ivory or ebony.

Another reason not to look at the keys.... ;-)



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Re: Kenya burns stockpile of ivory [Re: accordeur] #2536569
05/04/16 10:13 AM
05/04/16 10:13 AM
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What if they would eg synthetically make ivory, or breed thousands elephants just for their ivory and sell that? I suppose at some point there is enough. And if it would be made cheap enough, the searching and killing wild elephants would be a waste of money.

But that is not going to happen as long as ivory trade would be illegal. Which is exactly why the prices keep high....


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Re: Kenya burns stockpile of ivory [Re: accordeur] #2536587
05/04/16 11:13 AM
05/04/16 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by wouter79
But that is not going to happen as long as ivory trade would be illegal. Which is exactly why the prices keep high....

This topic is likely over-discussed on PW, but I've seen documentaries regarding the prohibition of alcoholic beverages in the US. The result was a thriving, vibrant underworld of illegal pubs, bars, clubs and anywhere else where folks could drink alcohol and party. The law was such a miserable failure that the prohibition on alcoholic beverages was repealed.

It's the same with the illegal drug trade; especially marijuana/cannabis. Now, some states are making it legal, and others are turning a blind eye and not enforcing the current laws in those states.

There is simply not enough park rangers, law enforcement officers or even military to completely stop the illegal ivory trade.

Of course, I don't have an answer either, other than to have some legal avenues for the harvesting of ivory without killing elephants.

Recently, the world famous Barnum and Baily Circus, that has been around for many years, has discontinued the live elephant acts in their show due to scrutiny from the animal rights activists, who said the elephants were beaten and mistreated in order to be trained to perform. So, the elephants will be exiled to a 200 acre reserve in the middle of nowhere, somewhere in Florida to be cared for and forgotten by all but a few attendants/keepers.

All I can say is that I hope the elephants of the world with ivory tusks protruding out of their mouths survive, live long and prosper.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Kenya burns stockpile of ivory [Re: Rickster] #2536639
05/04/16 01:36 PM
05/04/16 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Rickster
..., but I've seen documentaries regarding the prohibition of alcoholic beverages in the US. The result was a thriving, vibrant underworld of illegal pubs, bars, clubs and anywhere else where folks could drink alcohol and party. The law was such a miserable failure that the prohibition on alcoholic beverages was repealed. ...


The Ken Burns Prohibition series on PBS should be required viewing for the U.S. house and senate. It's the most useful thing he's ever done.



-- J.S.

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Re: Kenya burns stockpile of ivory [Re: accordeur] #2536671
05/04/16 03:23 PM
05/04/16 03:23 PM
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At a high-level, I suppose there are two ethical issues in play:
  1. Will poaching of elephants result in their extinction?
  2. Is it ok to use bits of their carcass once they're dead (whether they died of natural causes, or were slaughtered)?

Regarding extinction, I'm no expert, but I understand that populations are growing. Of course, I would not want to see elephants driven to extinction if that indeed is an issue.

Regarding the second, I know this is an ethical dilemma for some people, and factors into why some people are vegetarians, for example. I eat a lot of chicken, beef and pork, and these typically come from animals that are bred for said purpose (which I also understand is ethically bothersome to some people).

When I see the poaching pictures, though... I don't know. In an era where synthetic key tops are of higher and higher quality, not to mention that they must be less expensive than ivory, and certainly last longer and have fewer of the problems associated with ivory keys, it's almost a no-brainer to me. I know that some people have an affinity for ivory keys--by coincidence, my own piano has them--but I find myself increasingly in the camp that says the only place ivory belongs is on an elephant.


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
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