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Originally Posted by JoeT
It's way harder to test other samples, because of their non-adjustable good dampening.

But with the wonders of artificial MIDI you can test that. And you don't need bad dampening to show it off.

I now have MIDI file with a shorter C2 vel 127 directly followed by a long C2 vel 1 (silent) note. The notes are basically connected back to back, i. e. perfect legato.

The ES100 totally silences the loud note once it encounters the C2 Note-Off C2 vel 1 Note-On despite both MIDI events happening within MIDI resolution (1 ms). So regardless of technique, you won't get the right sound out of an ES100. One Note-Off and the sound is gone forever.

I will now test the Ivory II American D VST and look how it fares.


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Originally Posted by JoeT
I will now test the Ivory II American D VST and look how it fares.

Well, it completely passes the test and behaves exactly like expected.

Two notes, a very loud one and a silent one directly connected together (perfect legato): You can't hear the Note-Off at all like it should be.

But even with a 50 ms gap (about 1/64 note) between the loud and the silent note the loud note gets only slightly dampened and still continues to ring while the silent note holds the damper up. Perfect!

That is exactly how a real piano behaves.

So on Ivory II you can play perfect legato while moving the keys all the way up (which always happens on a two sensor action) on other instruments you completely lose the previous tone then.

Test results with repeating notes (one shorter loud, one longer silent) in perfect legato:

Kawai ES100: Fails, note goes completely silent even with perfect legato (1 ms).

Pianoteq 5.6: Fails, note goes completely silent at > 10 ms gaps, behaves weird (tone dying off with weird resonances) below that threshold.

Ivory II: Passes, responds correctly to good upright piano technique, notes get dampened (less or more) according to how long the key is actually up.

BTW: This is not just a fringe case for single note repetitions. The issue also makes many ornaments in baroque period music sound wrong.


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I think there are 2 things : the ability of the keyboard to avoid the note-off between two notes and the behaviour of the tone generator when a note which is partialy damped is triggered again.

About the first part, a 2 sensors keyboard can't avoid the note-off without adding latency. You said (deleted during a reply) :
Originally Posted by JoeT
You missed the point again, the event sequence I'm talking about is:
sensor #2 off
sensor #1 off
sensor #1 on

sensor #2 on

If the bold marked events happen at once (aka directly after another) it's simply wrong behavior to shut off the previous piano sample.


In fact, the second and third event aren't send simultaneously, then at the second one, the keyboard can't know if sensor #1 on will be received soon after. Then a note-off is produced.

This is consistent with the Kawai page I have quoted (see the 2 sensors tab), and the FAQ of Yamaha about its keyboard. "GH3 keyboard: This keyboard has Yamaha's proprietary third sensor, the Damper Sensor. It enables the pianist to play the same note in rapid succession without cutting off the sound," (http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article...nd_graded_hammer_standard_GHS_keyboards/).

===

Regardless of the note-off generation, you are right : if a note-on is generated very soon after the note-off of the same note, the fast decay of the note should stop, and just layering a fast decay of the first note with a slow decay of a second should be considered wrong.


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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
I think there are 2 things : the ability of the keyboard to avoid the note-off between two notes and the behaviour of the tone generator when a note which is partialy damped is triggered again.

Sure, but avoiding the Note-off is simply not required if the sound generator works correctly (means: like a real piano). So the third sensor just boils down to how much you have to lift the key to resound the note again. You have basically two options to play the same note legato.

1. Lift the key just half-way, then re-press it:

Grand piano produces two legato notes (correct)
Upright piano produces no second note, but the first note continues to sound (correct for an upright)
3sensor digital produces two legato notes (correct)
2sensor digital produces one note (like an upright)
VST behave like the digitals depending on the controller abilities.

2. Fully lift the key then re-press again immediately:

Grand still produces two legato notes (correct)
Upright piano produces two legato notes (correct)
Ivory II produces two legato notes (correct)
3sensor digital produces two notes, but cuts off the first one (non-legato, wrong)
2sensor digital produces two notes, but cuts off the first one (non-legato, wrong)
Pianoteq produces produces two notes, but cuts of the first one (non-legato, wrong)
(Notice: It's completely irrelevant how many sensors the controller has, it doesn't change the behavior here, the sound generator either gets it right or wrong.)

You see, once you apply upright piano technique, digitals and most virtual instruments behave wrong, while a real grand piano behaves right of course. The problem also applies to ornaments, trills and extremely fast staccatos, which should sound legato (but do not on flawed instruments).

Last edited by JoeT; 04/28/16 07:09 PM.

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Originally Posted by mcoll
And changing fingers is sometimes not the case (unless you have way more than normal people) - see Chopin Op. 28 no. 4 E minor prelude. That's different for fast repeated notes, where it's normal to alternate fingers, but that wasn't the scenario I was referring to.

Just a note: When this piece was written, digitals weren't invented yet and the Erard piano action was just a few years old and not inside every grand piano like today. Hasn't hindered anyone playing this piece. wink


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Originally Posted by JoeT

2. Fully lift the key then re-press again immediately:

Grand still produces two legato notes (correct)
Upright piano produces two legato notes (correct)

If we fully lift the key, the damper would fall down to touch the string.
The string may have some vibration energy left after being touched by the damper, depending on how loud the note is played, how long it is held, and how fast the key is lifted.
But would it sound the same as playing legato?

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Originally Posted by siros
If we fully lift the key, the damper would fall down to touch the string. The string may have some vibration energy left after being touched by the damper, depending on how loud the note is played, how long it is held, and how fast the key is lifted.

The damper has no time to touch the string, if your technique is right and the piano is well regulated, even without an Erard action.

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But would it sound the same as playing legato?

At a certain very high tempo even playing different notes staccato sounds like playing legato due to the nature of the wooden piano action.


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Originally Posted by JoeT

Just a note: When this piece was written, digitals weren't invented yet and the Erard piano action was just a few years old and not inside every grand piano like today. Hasn't hindered anyone playing this piece. wink


Sure, let's all just get 20-year old digitals, because you can play the piece beautifully on them. And maybe some old barely-working pianoforte for an acoustic, because you can still play beautifully.

I'm sorry but I just can't accept that argument smile Shouldn't we always try to improve, to find better solutions, to better our technique, to get something better in the same budget etc? That's the way I see it.

Of course, you can play beautifully on anything if you want to follow your train of thought, but if that can be improved, you should go for it - that's how I see it.

As for the example chosen, that was just one of many which I recently tried to polish. Of course, it's not vital in that case and I believe most (me included) simply use the sustain pedal, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't want to have a good keyboard.
Another example that I gave in this thread and I feel compelled to repeat - Asturias. Good luck playing that properly without dropped notes on a 2-sensor action (and with the proper tempo and dynamics, because otherwise one could probably hammer away through the piece and do reasonably well at not dropping notes).
I'm sure there are many more, but that's not the point.

The point is - if there can be progress, let there be progress. And progress it is, don't be mistaken.

Maybe in a couple of years the sound engine and vst programming problems you pointed out will be solved. If you were to choose an instrument then, would you go for the better stuff or just take the argument "you can play it beautifully on the old stuff too?"

Just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by mcoll
Sure, let's all just get 20-year old digitals, because you can play the piece beautifully on them. And maybe some old barely-working pianoforte for an acoustic, because you can still play beautifully.

Beside my digital I play over 20 years old acoustic pianos - upright ones. And my entire repertoire works fine on them. (To repeat notes on an upright action you have to let the key almost entirely up)

Quote
Another example that I gave in this thread and I feel compelled to repeat - Asturias. Good luck playing that properly without dropped notes on a 2-sensor action

Uh, I don't see any repeated legato notes there. How can you have trouble playing staccato with a two-sensor action? You are supposed to completely let the keys go immediately after hitting them, look at his hands:

[video:youtube]-P8BQVhOv5A[/video]

The detached sound digitals produce is exactly what is written by the composer. The third sensor never comes into play here.

Quote
Maybe in a couple of years the sound engine and vst programming problems you pointed out will be solved.

It would be interesting to hear, how Roland's sound generator handles this. The current modeling one and previous one inside the FP-30.

Last edited by JoeT; 04/29/16 04:49 AM. Reason: corrected video link

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What do the 20-year old uprights have to do with what I've said? Or maybe there have been major technological breakthroughs in the upright action in the last 20 years that I'm unaware of.
I was merely making a case for progress as opposed to ignoring it or even worse,denying it. If that would've been the general attitude, the piano would've been stuck to the pianoforte days, action and all.

As for the Asturias, I wasn't talking about repeated legato anymore. It was a different scenario. I was talking about the fast repeating D4 note which one is supposed to play at various dynamics throughout the piece (from pp to ff). I tried analyzing his hands when playing pp, but I cannot clearly see the d4 - which is the only note relevant for the question at hand - but I'd be willing to bet he plays very close to the key at that point.

And of course, my technique will continue to need perfecting all my life, but playing this piece on my piano (triple sensor) and playing this piece on an older Yamaha with the GH action (2 sensors), on the first I have no dropped notes, on the second it happened quite a number of times.
Is it a matter of technique? Maybe. Did the 3 sensor piano react better to my playing? Definitely.

But I feel we thoroughly derailed the topic. To conclude - progress or no progress? Which do you prefer?

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Originally Posted by mcoll
What do the 20-year old uprights have to do with what I've said?

The upright piano action behaves like what you know as two-sensor digital piano action since it came into existence. If you can't play upright pianos properly, you technique is lacking.

Quote
Did the 3 sensor piano react better to my playing? Definitely.

The third sensor is meant for applying special grand piano technique for super-fast legato repetition found in advanced material, it's not a substitute for sloppy playing. In this case it even hinders you improving your technique. A piano teacher would have seen why you missed notes on the GH action and could tell you how to fix it, so the piece works on every piano (like it should).

Quote
But I feel we thoroughly derailed the topic.

We're still discussing piano actions ("Mechanic").


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Originally Posted by mcoll
To conclude - progress or no progress? Which do you prefer?

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If con if the opposite of pro, does that mean that congress is the opposite of progress?

(sorry, couldn't resist smile


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L.E. progress or congress?

Thank you for pointing that out fizikisto :))

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Originally Posted by mcoll
Originally Posted by mcoll
To conclude - progress or no progress? Which do you prefer?


Lame quote. wink

But I agree, you have to work on your technique to do any progress. smile

And me too...


Peace

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Normally I'd agree with you about the quote, but given that Joe has tried to convince us for the last 2 pages that the third sensor was useless, I couldn't resist the temptation :))
Not too long ago (just when the piano was coming to be), there were those who opposed it and said it will never be a proper concert instrument, and wouldn't hear about it. The harpsichord was the only instrument for concerts, not some new weird invention. Why progress.. Congress! smile

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Joe is right in what he writes, according to my experience. smile
3 sensors, as designed in today's digital piano actions, only matters for a miniscule part of the available repertoire for piano.

Right technique is far more important. smile


Peace

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