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Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
ilmagodiloz #2534496 04/27/16 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ilmagodiloz
Just one more thing: what about the keybed of the FP-30 vs the Kawai ES100? Big differences except the 3 vs 2 sensors?


2 or 3 sensors are only an important issue on Piano World. wink
Out in the Real World, skilled pianists plays amazing solo pieces on digital pianos with 2 sensors without feeling limited or restrained in any way! smile


Peace

Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
Rille Stark #2534500 04/27/16 02:36 PM
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Well said... I totally agree...!. Regards!.

Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
ilmagodiloz #2534504 04/27/16 02:55 PM
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I think, the most important to make a right choice is which sound you like and prefer. Personally I prefer Roland.


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Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
ilmagodiloz #2534530 04/27/16 04:12 PM
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The third sensor can make a difference in the sound as well, not just the repeat.
It allows you to play legato on repeat notes without using the pedal, and I'm pretty sure there are VSTs that react differently due to the let-off information, although I'm not sure if that's available only with 3 sensor keyboards or not.
Also, the continuous pedal is a plus (especially in the case of Pianoteq).

Rychubil, the whole idea was just to compare keys, the thread starter doesn't care about the sound because he will not use it. It's just for software instruments.

Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
ilmagodiloz #2534536 04/27/16 04:24 PM
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What call you "let-off" information ? On every keyboard, the informations that are transmitted are the Note-on/Note-off event and its velocity information. On a 3 sensor keyboard, you can have successive Note-on without Note-off event. On a 2 sensors keyboard, you will have a Note-off event between each Note on.

The only extra information you can have on some keyboards is the release velocity (note-off velocity). But I don't think a 3rd sensor is needed to generate this information. (But they may be restricted to high end keyboard by marketing reason, then 3 sensors keyboards).

NB: Some pianos use a note-on with 0 velocity instead of a note-off, then some sentences are slightly wrong.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 04/27/16 04:26 PM.

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Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
ilmagodiloz #2534539 04/27/16 04:31 PM
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I mentioned that I'm not sure if the 3rd sensor has anything to do with it, but I was talking about the note-off velocity as you've called it, that's not present on all keyboards and it influences the sound.
Also the legato on repeat notes is impossible without the 3rd sensor (such as Chopin's Prelude in E minor), albeit it's quite difficult to achieve even if you do have 3 sensors.
And while wonderful performances are achieved with 2-sensor keyoards, as Rille Stark said, I don't agree that it's not necessary. It makes a notable difference. To give just an example where it really matters, from personal experience - Asturias by Albeniz. The 3rd sensor makes a big difference in this case for instance. And I'm sure there are many others.

Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
ilmagodiloz #2534549 04/27/16 05:14 PM
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"it's quite difficult to achieve even if you do have 3 sensors."

The difficulty could depend of the keyboard. One of the PianomanChuck's video compares two different 3 sensors keyboards and one need to release the key upper than the other to trigger the same note again. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnqHStIL02E


NB: the YDP143 and YDP163 have the same tone generator but only the latter has 3 sensors. This could confirm that 3 sensors is not synonymous of release velocity.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 04/28/16 02:14 AM. Reason: Correction proposed by Kawi James

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Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
Frédéric L #2534597 04/27/16 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
NB: the YDP143 and YDP163 have the same tone generator but only the former has 3 sensors.


Do you not mean 'the latter' (i.e. the YDP-163)?

James
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Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
ilmagodiloz #2534659 04/28/16 02:01 AM
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Yes, the latter. Thanks for the correction.


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Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
ilmagodiloz #2534662 04/28/16 02:33 AM
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Noted, concerning the release velocity.
And I'm also aware and it's normal that not all triple sensor keys are equal, but the again, the technique I mentioned isn't easy on acoustic either smile

Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
mcoll #2534729 04/28/16 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mcoll
The third sensor can make a difference in the sound as well, not just the repeat.
It allows you to play legato on repeat notes without using the pedal,

You can play same-note legato with two sensors just fine. If you can't, your technique needs improvement.

The third sensor is about the repetition speed which has a lower limit with a sensor less (like a slower upright action): If you can play repeated notes that fast (and still even) that your piano is limiting you, you should already have figured out same-note legato way before.

Quote
and I'm pretty sure there are VSTs that react differently due to the let-off information, although I'm not sure if that's available only with 3 sensor keyboards or not.

Release velocity is usually not available on entry-level digitals.


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Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
ilmagodiloz #2534732 04/28/16 10:30 AM
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Sorry for straying off-topic.
My technique always needs improvement, but JoeT, since I'm pretty much self-taught, maybe I'm using the term wrong or I'm missing something, but I don't see how you can play legato repeated notes without a third sensor (and without pedal). Could you explain? Anybody else is welcomed to chip in as well.
Thanks!

Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
Frédéric L #2534733 04/28/16 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
On every keyboard, the informations that are transmitted are the Note-on/Note-off event and its velocity information. On a 3 sensor keyboard, you can have successive Note-on without Note-off event. On a 2 sensors keyboard, you will have a Note-off event between each Note on.

That is simply a firmware issue. You could have successive Note-on events with two sensors too or simply filter out Note-offs which are directly followed by Note-ons of the same note.

If there is an audible difference, it results from the fact, that a Note-off cancels the tone regardless if it's followed by immediately re-pressing the key.

Which is not the correct behavior, because on an acoustic the previous tone continues to sound, even if the damper touched the string very shortly (dampening doesn't happen in zero time).

This "bug" therefore is a variant of the lifting and then re-pressing keys during pedaling, which also incorrectly cancels the sound on some digitals after lifting the pedal while the keys down.

So at most it's a sound generator problem, not a keyboard action problem. Nothing a good virtual instrument couldn't fix.


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Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
JoeT #2534736 04/28/16 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
You can play same-note legato with two sensors just fine. If you can't, your technique needs improvement.


I don't think so. With 2 sensors, to play a note, both sensors must be triggered in order to measure the velocity.

If you have played a note, and want to play it again, you will have to pass the upper sensor to be able to trigger both sensors again. Unfortenately, doing this, will shut off the first note. If you release the key half-way, and press it again, the piano will only see one event (the bottom sensor hit) and will not have any information about the velocity.

To be clearer, lets suppose you have two sensors and release the key halfway in order to avoid the note-off. You will have the following events :

t=0 : first sensor on
t=0,1 : second sensor on... time = 0,1... velocity=k/0,1

t=1 : second sensor off (we release the key halfway)

t=1,5 : second sensor on (we press it again... it would be clumsy to use velocity=k/0,5 since this time is the time to release (halfway) the key and press it again. We just want the time to press it again.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 04/28/16 10:49 AM.

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Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
mcoll #2534737 04/28/16 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mcoll
My technique always needs improvement, but JoeT, since I'm pretty much self-taught, maybe I'm using the term wrong or I'm missing something, but I don't see how you can play legato repeated notes without a third sensor (and without pedal). Could you explain?

Do you occasionally practice on an acoustic upright piano? That could actually help you to improve that.

The standard repetition technique for single notes is to switch between different fingers on the same key.

So instead of keeping the damper lifted all the time by keeping the key at the bottom like on a grand piano with with a proper English repetition action, you have a fluid motion of the key going almost completely up and immediately down again while being played by a different finger each time.

Such technique is must for properly playing piano, because you can't count on always having a modern grand with a repetition action in perfect condition available.


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Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
Frédéric L #2534742 04/28/16 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by JoeT
You can play same-note legato with two sensors just fine. If you can't, your technique needs improvement.


I don't think so. With 2 sensors, to play a note, both sensors must be triggered in order to measure the velocity.

True, but that's not the issue.

Quote
If you have played a note, and want to play it again, you will have to pass the upper sensor to be able to trigger both sensors again. Unfortenately, doing this, will shut off the first note.

And that shutting off the note there is simply wrong behavior. A piano note needs only to be shut off, once the damper is sitting on the string choir and stays there to actually damp the strings. Like when playing staccato for example, there this effect is intended.

Quote
If you release the key half-way, and press it again, the piano will only see one event (the bottom sensor hit) and will not have any information about the velocity.

That's fine, if you don't release the hammer, an acoustic without a repetition action won't strike the strings again either.

So we are still just talking about one of the many digital sound generator limitations and not about an action limitation. Actually if one ignores the third sensor, plays a digital like an upright acoustic and the tone gets shut off due to the Note-off event, the sound is still wrong and the third sensor isn't helping it at all.


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Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
JoeT #2534744 04/28/16 11:12 AM
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Hey!!

I had my doubts about 3 sensors in FP-30.
Then my anxiety was too high... wink I had to see it with my eyes.

YES!! there are 3 Sensors!!

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

Have fun!

Pablo


Pablo Woiz
Yamaha G2, Roland Fp-30 //before: Technics p-30, Casio Privia px-100, Yamaha MX-49, M.Audio Axiom-61, Yamaha CP-80, Roland f-20, Upright Zimmermann.
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Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
JoeT #2534750 04/28/16 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Quote
If you have played a note, and want to play it again, you will have to pass the upper sensor to be able to trigger both sensors again. Unfortenately, doing this, will shut off the first note.

And that shutting of the note there is simply wrong behavior. A piano note needs only to be shut off, once the damper is sitting on the string choir and stays there to actually damp the strings. Like when playing staccato for example, there this effect is intended.


When the piano receives the following events:

sensor #1 on
sensor #2 on
sensor #2 off
sensor #1 off
(1 is the upper)

it won't be able to guess that the player wants the damper to sit on the strings or if the player wants a single note legato. Then the default behaviour (correct or wrong) is to shut the note off. With the opposite behavior, a single note will not be shut. Said in an other way, the sensor #1 is the damper sensor.

With a 3 sensors, we have no problem, because we have a dedicated damper sensor, then after two "sensor off" events (sensor #3 off, sensor #2 off), we can wait a "damper sensor" to be "off" (if the player wants to switch the note off), or a new cycle (sensor #2 on, sensor #3 on) if we want a legato.

If you are not convinced, let's see the VPC1 details (http://www.kawaimp.com/mp11/detail/touch/) :
Quote
The added third sensor improves responsiveness when playing the same key repeatedly, and unlike conventional two sensor keyboard actions found in most stage pianos, allows the sound of a single note to be gradually ‘layered’ without the previous tone being lost.


EDIT: This page also gives you 2 tabs : 3 sensors and 2 sensors which enable you to compare.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 04/28/16 12:00 PM.

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Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
ilmagodiloz #2534751 04/28/16 11:24 AM
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Once again, very nice seeing pictures with the thing, Pablo! smile
Joe, it seems it wasn't me who was misunderstanding.
Frederic L got the idea right. I wasn't talking about note repetition, I was talking about repeated legato notes, where you don't let the damper return on the string at all between playing the notes again.
Yes, I play on uprights occasionally and also on grands. The upright also makes this technique quite hard to achieve, due to the specifics of its mechanics.
As for digitals, common sense, and Frederic L say that that's only possible with 3 sensors (which allows simulating the double escapement).
And changing fingers is sometimes not the case (unless you have way more than normal people) - see Chopin Op. 28 no. 4 E minor prelude. That's different for fast repeated notes, where it's normal to alternate fingers, but that wasn't the scenario I was referring to.

Thank you for the better explanation, Frederic!

Re: Mechanic: Roland FP-30 vs Casio PX-160
ilmagodiloz #2534782 04/28/16 01:01 PM
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Well I just played a bit with Pianoteq, where you can adjust damper effectiveness and it seems Pianoteq gets it wrong somehow.

I took D4 Player Clean, switched off all Delay and Reverb effects and set the damper duration to 6-8, which basically means a piano in bad need for regulation. It takes more than a second to have a note going silent again after the damper falls, but for demonstration purposes, this is what we want. According to Pianoteq's MIDI log I'm able to reach less than 100 ms between Note-Off and Note-On, which should suffice for this test.

Now I play a loud fortissimo note, holding down the key, then lift it all the way up and have a silent note immediately afterwards (within like 50 ms) holding down the key again.

What should happen in my opinion: The silent keypress shouldn't be heard at all and the fortissimo note shouldn't be affected either because of the adjusted very bad dampening - it should simply continue to sound.

What Pianoteq does: It models the note slowly dying off while its damper is still completely up (because I'm still holding the key). Which I think is wrong, because the key was only up for about 50 ms. Pianoteq seems to react to the Note-off but completely forgets what happens afterwards.

It's way harder to test other samples, because of their non-adjustable good dampening.


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