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Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Norbert #2534317 04/26/16 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Norbert

Fact be known that Estonia buyers seem very "similar people": if meeting in one large room they would all feel like 'long lost friends'.

Perhaps it's based on the fact that Estonia has such a special tone and musical appeal that appeals to a special group of people the connection of which occurs rather quickly. Or never at all.



So if I buy an Estonia I'll finally have some friends? Cool - I'm going to buy one. Pfff...whatevs.

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Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Markus03 #2534361 04/27/16 03:36 AM
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The hard sell is strong in this one

sirwormsalot wink

Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
BornInTheUSA #2534387 04/27/16 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelha


So if I buy an Estonia I'll finally have some friends? Cool - I'm going to buy one. Pfff...whatevs.


Got the piano which I like quite a lot. Still waiting on the friends.


Learner
Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Markus03 #2534464 04/27/16 01:00 PM
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Buyers should always make the decisions they see fit, it's called "choice" And that's totally good.
Commonly we assume the choices are based on our perception of tone,touch,price,etc which again is perfectly fine. It's simply the way it should be.
But from my observation over many years "sound" is highly individual and often perceived quite differently by different people.
For example what is a 'soft' or 'romantic',i.e. "ideal" tone is 'muted' or 'subdued' to others.
What is described or at least "perceived" as brilliant, sparkling or bright to some is again called "sharp" or "tinny" by others.
And so on.
After a million posts here, people still cant [and never will..] decide on "ideal tone or sound" It just can't be done. And: "why should it"
The documentary I posted before was thought to underline the connections recognized in regards to preferences in music, sound and the emotions it produces. It is IMHO very interesting. It was never meant to to favor Estonia over any other piano. As mentioned, it quite likely happens with other makes too. http://www.dw.com/en/program/sarahs-music/s-101118-9798
But it sure makes those who choose this piano a seemingly special bunch. It doesn't of course 'make friends' but quickly would if they would all meet. Meaning "musically". I thought this was a curious observation to share. It may not be relevant to anybody but it was interesting to watch nonetheless.
It certainly has always struck me as a little peculiar. And we sold a lot of other pianos...
Personally at this stage I do not really care which piano anybody is choosing in his search. After 35 years in business I'm passed that point and don't need to boost my own. Nor does Estonia need the help.
Happiness and fulfillment to everybody out there playing their own choice of piano!
And the type of music they prefer!!
After all,that's what it's all about!
Norbert smile

Last edited by Norbert; 04/27/16 01:26 PM.

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Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Markus03 #2534481 04/27/16 01:46 PM
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I am still waiting for that Bösendorfer that wanders around and looks for me because I am "pre-programmed" for it (I know that I am, for this one special Bosie). I hope in the end it will find and choose me.

Actually it might then even pay for getting me, since it so much wants me after all. I think I could be had for very little or nothing.

Until that happens, I had to choose myself another piano, as a substitute. Within the limits of my budget, unfortunately.


Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.
Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Markus03 #2534506 04/27/16 03:01 PM
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My experienceof Bösendorfers is that they do very little wandering around and I can't help feeling that your one special Bosie [(?Bösie) even
(??Boesie)] may never find you. I am driven to despair thinking of the poor thing passing its days love-lorn and crippled by unsatisfied desire.

It really is too sad.

Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Markus03 #2534510 04/27/16 03:17 PM
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Shigeru is the tops. We love Shigeru Action, sound, looks, bench, warranty 10 years parts and labor and a Master Tech comes in to tune and prep as part of the service. Like no other!!!


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Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Norbert #2534513 04/27/16 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Norbert
Buyers should always make the decisions they see fit, it's called "choice" And that's totally good.
Commonly we assume the choices are based on our perception of tone,touch,price,etc which again is perfectly fine. It's simply the way it should be.
But from my observation over many years "sound" is highly individual and often perceived quite differently by different people.
For example what is a 'soft' or 'romantic',i.e. "ideal" tone is 'muted' or 'subdued' to others.
What is described or at least "perceived" as brilliant, sparkling or bright to some is again called "sharp" or "tinny" by others.
And so on.
After a million posts here, people still cant [and never will..] decide on "ideal tone or sound" It just can't be done. And: "why should it"
The documentary I posted before was thought to underline the connections recognized in regards to preferences in music, sound and the emotions it produces. It is IMHO very interesting. It was never meant to to favor Estonia over any other piano. As mentioned, it quite likely happens with other makes too. http://www.dw.com/en/program/sarahs-music/s-101118-9798
But it sure makes those who choose this piano a seemingly special bunch. It doesn't of course 'make friends' but quickly would if they would all meet. Meaning "musically". I thought this was a curious observation to share. It may not be relevant to anybody but it was interesting to watch nonetheless.
It certainly has always struck me as a little peculiar. And we sold a lot of other pianos...
Personally at this stage I do not really care which piano anybody is choosing in his search. After 35 years in business I'm passed that point and don't need to boost my own. Nor does Estonia need the help.
Happiness and fulfillment to everybody out there playing their own choice of piano!
And the type of music they prefer!!
After all,that's what it's all about!
Norbert smile


Saw the video. Very interesting indeed. Thank you or sharing!

Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Scott McBain #2534516 04/27/16 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott McBain
Shigeru is the tops. We love Shigeru Action, sound, looks, bench, warranty 10 years parts and labor and a Master Tech comes in to tune and prep as part of the service. Like no other!!!



This ad. is brought to you courtesy of the McBain Piano Company.

Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Jean Claude #2534525 04/27/16 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Jean Claude
My experience of Bösendorfers is that they do very little wandering around and I can't help feeling that your one special Bosie [(?Bösie) even (??Boesie)] may never find you. I am driven to despair thinking of the poor thing passing its days love-lorn and crippled by unsatisfied desire.

It really is too sad.

Yes, isn't it?

Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Markus03 #2534553 04/27/16 05:27 PM
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Back to the original question, I've played both (though not recently) and own an Estonia 190 (made in 2005). I like both for different reasons. The SK-2 like all Shigeru Kawais has a very refined sound, it can be a very expressive piano, but what set it apart was that it was eminently controllable. The SK-7 next to it was much the same only much more. The Estonia 168 is more of a singing instrument but can play perhaps a bit louder than the Shigeru (or maybe it just seems that way). Of course the Estonia 190 has a bigger sound (it being a bigger piano). So for me the Shigeru is great for the classics like Mozart and Haydn. To my ears the Estonia sounds a bit better for Chopin, Liszt and Rachmaninov. YMMV.


Steve Chandler
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Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Steve Chandler #2534557 04/27/16 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
So for me the Shigeru is great for the classics like Mozart and Haydn. To my ears the Estonia sounds a bit better for Chopin, Liszt and Rachmaninov. YMMV.


I bet if people had the money and space they'd have a few pianos, but most don't so we have to pick one (except for Rickster).

Compare that to guitarists. Most guitarists have multiple guitars. A Fender Strat - great for that sweet, round, clean tone. Gibson Les Paul's are great for picking chords and distortion. Gibson Semi-Hollowbody's are great for jazz and blues. Maybe an Ibanez when you feel like shredding. Then a Martin acoustic for strumming, and some nylon-string for playing Spanish/classical. Guitars are also a lot less expensive so it's easier to buy 3-4 of them.

Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Markus03 #2534563 04/27/16 06:03 PM
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It's fairly easy to have romantic sentiments about a musical instrument. I'm enjoying the personification of a piano looking for an owner, but I cannot help but be concerned about most pianos' ability to compete for owners given the unrealistic standards of beauty put out by the media.

On the radio or on television, we only hear a few concert grands when so many other beautiful voices are left out. They are always perfectly polished, perfectly tuned...real pianos don't wake up every morning looking like that. And while black pianos are well represented, pianos of other finishes are clearly discriminated against. And I don't know where to even start with the poor, humble upright piano. The media always seems to portray them as old, worn out, honky tonk pianos as if the only tune they were fit to play was something from Stephen Foster.

Perhaps, we can all rally together and advance the rights of pianos!

To the OP, have fun choosing. smile


Sam Bennett
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Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Jean Claude #2534582 04/27/16 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Jean Claude

My experience of Bösendorfers is that they do very little wandering around and I can't help feeling that your one special Bosie [(?Bösie) even (??Boesie)] may never find you. I am driven to despair thinking of the poor thing passing its days love-lorn and crippled by unsatisfied desire.


That is so not my experience. I find that they shamelessly flirt with every "Für Elise" that walks by carrying a checkbook big enough to punch their ticket out of the showroom.
😉
Larry.



Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Norbert #2534598 04/27/16 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Norbert
The documentary I posted before was thought to underline the connections recognized in regards to preferences in music, sound and the emotions it produces. It is IMHO very interesting. It was never meant to to favor Estonia over any other piano. As mentioned, it quite likely happens with other makes too. http://www.dw.com/en/program/sarahs-music/s-101118-9798
But it sure makes those who choose this piano a seemingly special bunch. It doesn't of course 'make friends' but quickly would if they would all meet. Meaning "musically". I thought this was a curious observation to share. It may not be relevant to anybody but it was interesting to watch nonetheless.

1. "It quite likely happens with other makes too." NO, it DEFINITELY happens with other makes too and Estonia has absolutely no special claims on this type of thing. Isn't it beyond obvious that people with similar tastes in ANYTHING, whether musical tone, preferred type of music, or which presidential candidate they prefer would be drawn to each other more than people with dissimilar tastes?

2. People who have bought the same make of piano also would naturally want to have their choice positively reinforced and praised by someone else. It doesn't take much insight to understand this and it has NOTHING to do with Estonia.

Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
maurus #2534599 04/27/16 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by maurus
I am still waiting for that Bösendorfer that wanders around and looks for me because I am "pre-programmed" for it (I know that I am, for this one special Bosie). I hope in the end it will find and choose me.

Actually it might then even pay for getting me, since it so much wants me after all. I think I could be had for very little or nothing.

Until that happens, I had to choose myself another piano, as a substitute. Within the limits of my budget, unfortunately.
HAHAHAHAHAHA

Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
iLaw #2534604 04/27/16 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by iLaw
Originally Posted by Jean Claude

My experience of Bösendorfers is that they do very little wandering around and I can't help feeling that your one special Bosie [(?Bösie) even (??Boesie)] may never find you. I am driven to despair thinking of the poor thing passing its days love-lorn and crippled by unsatisfied desire.


That is so not my experience. I find that they shamelessly flirt with every "Für Elise" that walks by carrying a checkbook big enough to punch their ticket out of the showroom.
😉
Larry.
But Mason Hamlins are much more aggressive going after their prey. The love to push their weight around and sometimes try to overpower their potential buyers. I actually once saw a shopper approach a Mason CC, and when he got too close the lid the prop stick suddenly slipped and the poor guy was caught between the lid and rest of the frame. of course, that was the special art case Mason known as Venus Flytrap.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 04/27/16 08:43 PM.
Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Steve Chandler #2534950 04/28/16 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
Back to the original question, I've played both (though not recently) and own an Estonia 190 (made in 2005). I like both for different reasons. The SK-2 like all Shigeru Kawais has a very refined sound, it can be a very expressive piano, but what set it apart was that it was eminently controllable. The SK-7 next to it was much the same only much more. The Estonia 168 is more of a singing instrument but can play perhaps a bit louder than the Shigeru (or maybe it just seems that way). Of course the Estonia 190 has a bigger sound (it being a bigger piano). So for me the Shigeru is great for the classics like Mozart and Haydn. To my ears the Estonia sounds a bit better for Chopin, Liszt and Rachmaninov. YMMV.


That's very helpful. You are right in saying that the Shigeru or Estonia will sound better depending on the type of music played. I do want to learn jazz one day, what are your thoughts on which of these two jazz sounds"better"?

Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
Markus03 #2535020 04/29/16 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Markus03
Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
Back to the original question, I've played both (though not recently) and own an Estonia 190 (made in 2005). I like both for different reasons. The SK-2 like all Shigeru Kawais has a very refined sound, it can be a very expressive piano, but what set it apart was that it was eminently controllable. The SK-7 next to it was much the same only much more. The Estonia 168 is more of a singing instrument but can play perhaps a bit louder than the Shigeru (or maybe it just seems that way). Of course the Estonia 190 has a bigger sound (it being a bigger piano). So for me the Shigeru is great for the classics like Mozart and Haydn. To my ears the Estonia sounds a bit better for Chopin, Liszt and Rachmaninov. YMMV.


That's very helpful. You are right in saying that the Shigeru or Estonia will sound better depending on the type of music played. I do want to learn jazz one day, what are your thoughts on which of these two jazz sounds"better"?


I wouldn't find that too helpful when it comes to the sound of jazz, because it depends upon what "kind of jazz sound" you like. You still have to try each and make your own decision depending upon your likes. I might even go so far as to say the same for other composers; doesn't it depend upon what kind of Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Mozart (etc.) sound you like, not the kind of sound Markus likes?

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Estonia 168 vs Shigeru Kawai SK-2
BruceD #2535040 04/29/16 03:04 AM
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There is no way around: You need to sit down at both pianos extensively (after they have been adequately prepared). Feel them, listen to them. Then make your final negotiations with the dealer of your choice.

PS. I just checked prices over here in Germany and found the Estonia to be significantly cheaper than the Shigeru (comparing similar sizes). Whatever that means. In that price range I would definitely compare pianos of other makes as well before making a decision.

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