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DP with good harpsichord sound #2532692
04/21/16 12:09 PM
04/21/16 12:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
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Khue Offline OP
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Hello everyone.

I am looking for a DP with good harpsichord sound. I love J.Bach music (baroque music) and my focus is learning and playing his keyboard works with harpsichord. Currently, i'm playing in Yamaha NP30. My keyboard have light weight key action and two harpsichord sounds. I think i should get a better one with more weight in key action.


- My budget is $700
- Key action is not important to me, but it must have weight, not light weight. I don't have plan to play in acoustic piano.
- Realistic Harpsichord smile.

. This is list piano that store near me have (*new DP)
- Casio: CDP-120 ($450), CDP-230R ($600), PX-150BK ($700)
- Yamaha: P-45($600), P-115($750)

Anyone can share your experience in this model about key action and harpsichord sound? Should i buy one of them or get an old, secondhand DP that had good harpsichord sound? In my country, i can see a lot of old, second hand digital piano in every showroom.

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Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Khue] #2532711
04/21/16 12:58 PM
04/21/16 12:58 PM
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Posts: 169
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Tom Fort Online content
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Assuming you're willing to deal with connecting your keyboard to a computer:

1. Get the best inexpensive keyboard with good touch that you can, such as the Casio PX-160.

2. Buy Pianoteq 5.6 Stage and either use the included/free/historical harpsichords or buy the additional Hans Rucker II harpsichord jus released:

https://www.pianoteq.com/harpsichord
https://www.pianoteq.com/free_stuff



Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Khue] #2532714
04/21/16 01:10 PM
04/21/16 01:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 381
Rille Stark Offline
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I have both the Yamaha NP-30 and the P-115. The single harpsichord voice in the P-115 sounds a lot better to my ears and the added keyoff sound give it a very realistic touch. smile

But this one is probably top of the line for harpsichord: http://www.rolandus.com/products/c-30/


Peace

Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Khue] #2532719
04/21/16 01:38 PM
04/21/16 01:38 PM
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wouter79 Offline
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You think it wil work? I tried to play some harpsichord pieces on a DP a few weeks ago, but the feel was completely off. It was a piano touch, not a harpsichord touch. It even responded to dynamics : you could play louder and softer. It seemed total wrong to me.


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Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: wouter79] #2532720
04/21/16 01:41 PM
04/21/16 01:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
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Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by wouter79
You think it wil work? I tried to play some harpsichord pieces on a DP a few weeks ago, but the feel was completely off. It was a piano touch, not a harpsichord touch. It even responded to dynamics : you could play louder and softer. It seemed total wrong to me.


Yes, this is what I was thinking. The feel of a harpsichord is totally unlike a piano or organ.

I'd think you could shut off the velocity sensitivity to help at least.

Since the action isn't going to match, why not look into a software harpsichord using the current Yamaha?


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Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Khue] #2532722
04/21/16 01:48 PM
04/21/16 01:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,640
Hernando, MS
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fizikisto Offline
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The C-30 is indeed a nice bit of gear, but at $3000-4000 USD, it's a bit out of OP's price range. smile


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Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Morodiene] #2532740
04/21/16 03:23 PM
04/21/16 03:23 PM
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Posts: 381
Rille Stark Offline
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
[quote=wouter79]...
I'd think you could shut off the velocity sensitivity to help at least.

Since the action isn't going to match, why not look into a software harpsichord using the current Yamaha?


Velocity is off as default for the harpsicord voice in the Yamaha P-115. smile


Peace

Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Khue] #2532744
04/21/16 03:43 PM
04/21/16 03:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,396
Sofia, Bulgaria
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CyberGene Online content
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Yamaha keyboards traditionally have very nice harpsichord sound. Roland and Kawai used to lag behind to put it mildly. However when I tested the new Roland LX17 recently I was stunned at the beauty of all the harpsichord sounds. Not the case with Kawai though, they keep using a very old harpsichord sample that is mostly a joke.

Last edited by CyberGene; 04/21/16 03:44 PM.

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Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Khue] #2532750
04/21/16 03:57 PM
04/21/16 03:57 PM
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Know what you mean, I almost prefer the harpsichord on my 25 year old Yamaha PSS-790 than the default one on CA97. The 'harpsichord 2' sound is a bit better though.

Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Khue] #2532758
04/21/16 04:41 PM
04/21/16 04:41 PM
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In this price range, and with this special interest, another vote for the Yamaha P115. Or indeed, go the software route.

PS. By the way, the NP30 action seems to me even less like a harpsichord than that in the P115. Of course no DP I know imitates the effect of the quills in the way the keys behave... perhaps the Roland C30 does, I have never played it.

Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: wouter79] #2532762
04/21/16 05:02 PM
04/21/16 05:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,395
Vught, The Netherlands
Dave Horne Online content
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Originally Posted by wouter79
You think it wil work? I tried to play some harpsichord pieces on a DP a few weeks ago, but the feel was completely off. It was a piano touch, not a harpsichord touch. It even responded to dynamics : you could play louder and softer. It seemed total wrong to me.


I'm sure the velocity of that patch could have been set to maximum.



website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Morodiene] #2532815
04/21/16 10:23 PM
04/21/16 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by wouter79
You think it wil work? I tried to play some harpsichord pieces on a DP a few weeks ago, but the feel was completely off. It was a piano touch, not a harpsichord touch. It even responded to dynamics : you could play louder and softer. It seemed total wrong to me.


Yes, this is what I was thinking. The feel of a harpsichord is totally unlike a piano or organ.

I'd think you could shut off the velocity sensitivity to help at least.


The new Pianoteq 5.6 Harpsichord has fixed dynamics. If you've not given it a try, please do so. It costs nothing to try and is definitely worth it if you buy.


Keys: Yamaha GC2, Casio Privia PX-3, Roland RD800, Alesis VI61, Pianoteq 6.0
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Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: petes1] #2532852
04/22/16 04:50 AM
04/22/16 04:50 AM
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Posts: 22
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Khue Offline OP
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Thank you all guys!


Quote
Assuming you're willing to deal with connecting your keyboard to a computer:

1. Get the best inexpensive keyboard with good touch that you can, such as the Casio PX-160.

2. Buy Pianoteq 5.6 Stage and either use the included/free/historical harpsichords or buy the additional Hans Rucker II harpsichord jus released:

https://www.pianoteq.com/harpsichord
https://www.pianoteq.com/free_stuff

I bought and still wait MIDI USB cable arriving. I love harpsichord sound in their free stuff, both Harpsichord: Grimaldi and Harpsichord: Blanchet are nice.

Originally Posted by Rille Stark
I have both the Yamaha NP-30 and the P-115. The single harpsichord voice in the P-115 sounds a lot better to my ears and the added keyoff sound give it a very realistic touch. smile

But this one is probably top of the line for harpsichord: http://www.rolandus.com/products/c-30/


Peace


Sorry i can't afford C30, and store do not sell it. It's great to hear you loves P-115 Harpsichord sound smile


Originally Posted by wouter79
You think it wil work? I tried to play some harpsichord pieces on a DP a few weeks ago, but the feel was completely off. It was a piano touch, not a harpsichord touch. It even responded to dynamics : you could play louder and softer. It seemed total wrong to me.

Yes, i played some WTC I pieces in Yahama CLP and i have same feel. Some people said my fingers techinque was not good and my fingers weak. They advised me to get a weight key action DP to practice.

Originally Posted by Morodiene
Yes, this is what I was thinking. The feel of a harpsichord is totally unlike a piano or organ.

I'd think you could shut off the velocity sensitivity to help at least.

Since the action isn't going to match, why not look into a software harpsichord using the current Yamaha?

Thank you. The truth is, i don't know what a real Harpsichord intructment key weight action. A real harpsichord have light one?

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yamaha keyboards traditionally have very nice harpsichord sound. Roland and Kawai used to lag behind to put it mildly. However when I tested the new Roland LX17 recently I was stunned at the beauty of all the harpsichord sounds. Not the case with Kawai though, they keep using a very old harpsichord sample that is mostly a joke.

I still not test Harpsichord sound in Roland or Kawai. I will test it later, thank your for information!


Originally Posted by maurus
In this price range, and with this special interest, another vote for the Yamaha P115. Or indeed, go the software route.

PS. By the way, the NP30 action seems to me even less like a harpsichord than that in the P115. Of course no DP I know imitates the effect of the quills in the way the keys behave... perhaps the Roland C30 does, I have never played it.
Originally Posted by petes1
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by wouter79
You think it wil work? I tried to play some harpsichord pieces on a DP a few weeks ago, but the feel was completely off. It was a piano touch, not a harpsichord touch. It even responded to dynamics : you could play louder and softer. It seemed total wrong to me.


Yes, this is what I was thinking. The feel of a harpsichord is totally unlike a piano or organ.

I'd think you could shut off the velocity sensitivity to help at least.


The new Pianoteq 5.6 Harpsichord has fixed dynamics. If you've not given it a try, please do so. It costs nothing to try and is definitely worth it if you buy.

Thank you both! I will try with pianoteq in my current yahama first, and P-115 will be my choice if i buy a new DP smile.

Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Khue] #2532935
04/22/16 12:03 PM
04/22/16 12:03 PM
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Posts: 22
North Carolina, USA
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NathanShirley Offline
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I'll add my vote for Pianoteq's new Ruckers -- likely the best thing out there currently.

Although I must add, after you play around with this virtual harpsichord, you are going to want to have a two manual setup (Bach wrote for two manuals in works like the Goldberg Variations). Most 61 note midi controllers cover the organ manual range, but for harpsichord you'll want the 61 note range from F to F (not C to C). I have heard that fatar makes these... but don't have personal experience.

Forgive me for copying my recent post here, but thought you might find this of interest:


For those of you interested in playing harpsichord on a midi controller, you might look at Pianoteq's new virtual model of a 1624 Ruckers harpsichord (known as the Stradivarius of harpsichords). I was a beta-tester for this instrument and can say it's definitely the most sophisticated out there and likely the best overall. Here's their demo page (I recorded the improvisation listed there, and no, I am not an employee!): https://www.pianoteq.com/harpsichord

A really amazing thing about this harpsichord model is that you can set it up for two manuals and assign midi buttons to switch between stops, coupled manuals, etc. Below is an excerpt from my composition Suite for Harpsichord to be recorded for a new CD: One Hand or Two? This video features the Pianoteq instrument with two keyboards and a few different stops. I'll be recording this on a beautiful (real) double manual French harpsichord, along with my somewhat experimental Suite for Synthesizer and a host of original piano compositions to be recorded on an amazing 1890's Knabe concert grand. If you're interested in that, I'd be glad for your support on my Kickstarter which so far is doing quite well: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1086455594/one-hand-or-two-dark-melodic-piano-harpsichord-and

And here is that Pianoteq video, hope you enjoy:

[video:youtube]kQ9uceuOn7M[/video]


~Nathan

Composer-Pianist
https://www.NathanShirley.com
Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Khue] #2532996
04/22/16 02:48 PM
04/22/16 02:48 PM
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Quote
Thank you. The truth is, i don't know what a real Harpsichord intructment key weight action. A real harpsichord have light one?


You really should play a real harpsichord if even only once, to get an idea.

I'm not a harpsichord expert so any expert please correct me if I'm wrong. But I played a real harpsichord a number of times.

It's completely unlike a piano action. The key weight is irrelevant faik. It compares better with a computer keyboard (ever used those clicky mechanical ones?) than with a piano. You can feel the plucking of the strings, much like a guitar. This I think also explains why the old way of playing was so totally different from the way to play piano today.


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Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Khue] #2533010
04/22/16 03:36 PM
04/22/16 03:36 PM
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North Carolina, USA
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Yes, harpsichord action is completely different than piano action. Do you need something to replicate harpsichord action realistically? Not at all -- unless of course you plan to do significant playing on a real harpsichord. If you go from piano action to harpsichord action it will throw you, guaranteed.

Really a cheap spring action keyboard is far closer to harpsichord action than piano action is. But it's still not that close either. With harpsichord action you really feel the tension of the plectrum against the string, and then it suddenly gives as the string is plucked. And then if you are playing with a harpsichord with a 4 foot choir and the ability to couple the upper and lower manuals, the action gets noticeably stiffer as you are now plucking 2 or 3 strings per key (and they can be slightly staggered). No way that I know of to replicate this feel.

As for the sound, Pianoteq's Ruckers model can replicate not only an upper and lower manual, but a 4' choir, buff stop, staggered plucking, lute stop and more.

If you're interested in seeing some of this on an actual harpsichord, here's a rough video of excerpts from a rehearsal of my Suite for Harpsichord:

[video:youtube]GtsmQzOCKTk[/video]


~Nathan

Composer-Pianist
https://www.NathanShirley.com
Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Khue] #2533162
04/23/16 02:49 AM
04/23/16 02:49 AM
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Quote
>Do you need something to replicate harpsichord action realistically?


Yes: the action influences significantly the way you play it. How fast, how light, the articulation, etc.


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Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: NathanShirley] #2533234
04/23/16 10:28 AM
04/23/16 10:28 AM
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Richmond, BC, Canada
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Originally Posted by NathanShirley
. . .
Really a cheap spring action keyboard is far closer to harpsichord action than piano action is. But it's still not that close either. With harpsichord action you really feel the tension of the plectrum against the string, and then it suddenly gives as the string is plucked. And then if you are playing with a harpsichord with a 4 foot choir and the ability to couple the upper and lower manuals, the action gets noticeably stiffer as you are now plucking 2 or 3 strings per key (and they can be slightly staggered). No way that I know of to replicate this feel.
. . .


I've only played a harpsichord a few times, and it was long ago. But this explanation is spot-on. Unlike a piano, with a harpsichord your finger is directly connected to the plectrum when it plucks the string. You can feel that "catch-and-release".

. . . No manufacturer is going to duplicate that feel -- the market is too small
. . . to justify the development costs.

You could do it with a "haptic keyboard", but there aren't any in production.

The OP's NP30 has a light, synth-action keyboard. So -- assuming the OP has a computer available, and it's fast enough to run Pianoteq -- a reasonable suggestion would be:

. . . Keep the NP30 -- it has a "MIDI Out" port to drive other instruments.

. . . Buy Pianoteq, with the Ruckers harpsichord add-on (unless it's free).

. . . Buy a MIDI-to-USB adapter (e.g. an M-Audio "Uno", or MidiSport 2x2 for future
. . . use with 2 keyboards).

. . . If necessary, get a set of speakers for the computer. Otherwise, use headphones.

And then start learning Bach.

The NP30 keyboard is touch-sensitive, and Pianoteq has a free clavichord model. So you could play clavichord (no aftertouch from the NP30), as well as harpsichord.

It's not a neatly-packaged "all-in-one" solution, but it's cost-effective.



. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Charles Cohen] #2533715
04/25/16 06:51 AM
04/25/16 06:51 AM
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Khue Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Originally Posted by NathanShirley
. . .
Really a cheap spring action keyboard is far closer to harpsichord action than piano action is. But it's still not that close either. With harpsichord action you really feel the tension of the plectrum against the string, and then it suddenly gives as the string is plucked. And then if you are playing with a harpsichord with a 4 foot choir and the ability to couple the upper and lower manuals, the action gets noticeably stiffer as you are now plucking 2 or 3 strings per key (and they can be slightly staggered). No way that I know of to replicate this feel.
. . .


I've only played a harpsichord a few times, and it was long ago. But this explanation is spot-on. Unlike a piano, with a harpsichord your finger is directly connected to the plectrum when it plucks the string. You can feel that "catch-and-release".

. . . No manufacturer is going to duplicate that feel -- the market is too small
. . . to justify the development costs.

You could do it with a "haptic keyboard", but there aren't any in production.

The OP's NP30 has a light, synth-action keyboard. So -- assuming the OP has a computer available, and it's fast enough to run Pianoteq -- a reasonable suggestion would be:

. . . Keep the NP30 -- it has a "MIDI Out" port to drive other instruments.

. . . Buy Pianoteq, with the Ruckers harpsichord add-on (unless it's free).

. . . Buy a MIDI-to-USB adapter (e.g. an M-Audio "Uno", or MidiSport 2x2 for future
. . . use with 2 keyboards).

. . . If necessary, get a set of speakers for the computer. Otherwise, use headphones.

And then start learning Bach.

The NP30 keyboard is touch-sensitive, and Pianoteq has a free clavichord model. So you could play clavichord (no aftertouch from the NP30), as well as harpsichord.

It's not a neatly-packaged "all-in-one" solution, but it's cost-effective.


I have got my MIDI USB Cable and testing pianoteq sound with Trial Version. The Ruckers harpsichord sounds are great.

Does Pianoteq have discount for Stage version (99 euro)?

Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Khue] #2533744
04/25/16 08:41 AM
04/25/16 08:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 207
Bangkok, Thailand
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I bought Standard version with 30% discount. I think they have discount once or twice a year for Standard and Pro versions.
But I never see a discount for Stage version.

Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Rille Stark] #2533751
04/25/16 09:08 AM
04/25/16 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Rille Stark

But this one is probably top of the line for harpsichord: http://www.rolandus.com/products/c-30/
Peace

The Roland Classic Series keyboards are the real cat's meow.


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Opus 599. Now at #77 and giving it a break.
Re: DP with good harpsichord sound [Re: Khue] #2534051
04/26/16 04:56 AM
04/26/16 04:56 AM
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This is Ruckers Harpsichord sound in Trial Version https://clyp.it/v1efpuin (ignore my bad playing). Panoteq recorded all music that i played, great!

Anyone can share your recored using Harpsichord: Grimaldi and Harpsichord: Blanchet please?

Last edited by Khue; 04/26/16 04:57 AM.

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