2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
34 members (drewr, brennbaer, Almaviva, anamnesis, 7 invisible), 431 guests, and 295 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 9 of 11 1 2 7 8 9 10 11
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 770
M
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 770
@Pianist685 - something in your configuration is off. I'm not familiar with the disklavier system, but for the other two parts, the work and do a very good job.
For the latency, it may be due to your audio interface or the driver that you are using. On mid-specced computers of nowadays it's easy to achieve very low latencies, either using the ASIO4All driver, or a good external audio interface. As for the velocity response and dynamics, it may or may not take some fiddling to achieve a good velocity curve, depending on the piano used, but generally it's perfectly achievable.
Assuming that everything else in the setup is configured properly, maybe your piano system or the way it is configured has difficulty sending midi signals from 0 to 127 depending on the intensity with which you push the keys, or maybe the keys respond in a very uneven way. Also, maybe (if you have this option) you should try different velocity curves for the piano as well.

There are apps which monitor the midi numbers generated by the piano and you can check it with one of those.

Also, I remember reading somebody's posts on another forum who installed optical sensors in a keyboard and had to spend countless days configuring the reaction of those sensors in order to obtain realistic results. And I also remember reading on this forum (I think it was Kawai James who said it) that digital pianos undergo very elaborate and time-consuming (weeks or more) adjustments of the velocity response of the keys, made by experts, in order to get the realistic behavior that we require.
Maybe the numbers produced by your piano are simply very different or inconstant. Just a thought. (although, just having read about the disklavier, I doubt this)

Last edited by mcoll; 04/24/16 09:55 AM.
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 262
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 262
When you pull up Pianoteq, look at the MIDI detail info page. Press the keys really soft versus really hard. It will tell you the velocity numbers being transmitted which you can then map to the 0-128 scale. For example, if C shows as producing a range from 50-100, you need a velocity curve for that key that does something like 50-55 = 0 (for silent presses), 56=1 --> 100=128. Do just a few keys to experiment instead of trying to do an entire keyboard to play all pieces.

For latency, ASIO4ALL on Windows is usually required to avoid the Windows sound mixer which easily adds 25+ms to latency. If you don't want to mess with Windows drivers until you know you can use and want to use a specific product, you can test Pianoteq for Linux using a Linux Live ISO on running on a USB thumbdrive -- I'd recommend Linux Mint Mate edition as the most Windows-like distro. Pianoteq for Linux will allow you to choose the direct underlying hardware and avoid the latency of software sound mixers.

Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Originally Posted by Pianist685
The sample rate and latency fields in the Options menu of the KontaktPlayer I got with the software are unclickable.

Which version of Kontakt Player are you using?
From what I remember, Galaxy Pianos bundle an older version of Kontakt Player (4.x).
If you are still on that older version, you should try to install the latest version of Kontakt Player (5.x). Then you should be able to set the sample rate and buffer size.

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 133
E
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
E
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 133
much to my regret, I couldn't find the best steinway piano, even when I tried many of them.

pianoteq - very responsive, but for me I couldn't say i fall in love with it, its nice but not more.
the granduer - very good, this is my second choice
I can say the most enjoyable to play is the hammersmith, but it still has some lakes of realistic.

if you want to find a vst that you close your eyes and feel like a real acoustic, you'll be disappoint - i still haven't found one



Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,146
J
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,146
Originally Posted by euphoria
much to my regret, I couldn't find the best steinway piano, even when I tried many of them.

pianoteq - very responsive, but for me I couldn't say i fall in love with it, its nice but not more.
the granduer - very good, this is my second choice
I can say the most enjoyable to play is the hammersmith, but it still has some lakes of realistic.

if you want to find a vst that you close your eyes and feel like a real acoustic, you'll be disappoint - i still haven't found one




My view, too. But it's subjective preference.... no "right" or "wrong" view about these things. That's not to say you can't give reasons for your point of view. My own is that I just don't like the "tone" or "sound" of any of the Steinway vsts I own.... and I own quite a few.... totally subjective thing. Push comes to shove, I can accept the tone of the Orch Tools Steinway D, but only 4 layers?, and not playable??? Then there's the Ivory American, one of the best, I think, along with the Galaxy Vintage D.... I can understand why some folks like them, but in the end they're not for me. Ditto Hammersmith. Just a matter of personal taste.

Production Voices is rumoured to be working on a Steinway D sample. May be that will be the little-engine-that-could.

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 734
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 734
Eh, despite a fact that earlier I was not prefer Pianoteq to much, now I must say that I love it, especially the newest Steinway model B. It is excellent really and flies on keyboard. i think that version 6 (is coming) of Pianoteq will blown everything others easy. I am too tired and disappointed from bunch of samples pianos with bugs, and limitations in dynamics. (VSL Vienna is exception) . My god, I am start to transform from strictly sampling to physical modeling only. Its not bad at all. You know what, I dont want to go back. I am deleting most of my giant sample libraries.

Last edited by slobajudge; 04/24/16 06:39 PM.
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 855
M
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 855
Originally Posted by Pianist685

The sample rate and latency fields in the Options menu of the KontaktPlayer I got with the software are unclickable. I asked the manufacturer Native Instruments what to do, they required the serial number and once they got it they said it was an OEM version of their software that they do not support because it contains presets by Galaxy. They have disabled a couple of functions. Galaxy answered that I should use their presets and not bother about latency. Both companies answered in an unfriendly manner and were not really willing to help a customer.


This doesn't make sense. The Vintage D doesn't require any special OEM version of Kontakt. Just download the latest version of the FREE Kontakt 5 Player from the Native Instruments site and use it. You should do that anyway because whatever version is included with the Vintage D or other software pianos won't be up to date. If the sample rate and latency functions are disabled the problem is a conflict with your PC drivers/software, not due to Kontakt or the Vintage D alone.





Macy

CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 508
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 508
Originally Posted by Macy
Originally Posted by pold
Originally Posted by Macy
Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant

I think Ivory American and Galaxy are fun to play (using earphones, not loudspeakers), but as rendered and recorded they invariably sound thin and not at all close to "the real thing".


My only interest in virtual pianos is playing them live and 95%+ of that is through speakers not headphones. You may be right (I have no experience or desire) about rendering and recording them, but I find the Vintage D and Ivory American great to play live and convincing sounding through speakers.

I don't understand where the complaint about speaker limitations is coming from. That is one part of the chain that you can improve independently and nearly without limits (other than your financial resources) to satisfy personal subjective preferences. I use the built-in speakers of my CVP-409GP for virtual pianos and find their response and dispersion very satisfying in my large living room. I also have several much-higher quality speaker systems (including a very expensive full Martin Logan electrostatic surround system which is fantastic), but I don't feel a need to use higher performance speakers with my software pianos. Nevertheless, there's really no technical limit to speaker performance other than cost and subjective preferences.




So far we have never seen any speakers capable of matching an acoustic. To spot the difference you need to compare the two things side by side, and record them with professional mics. Like in this example:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENliynLPfrE

That video does nothing to prove the assertion that speakers are technically incapable of producing the sound of a piano.








That video is not a proof, was just an example. I am looking forward to seeing one day a digital piano that sounds as good as the acoustic. So, I hope you are right.

Last edited by pold; 04/24/16 10:21 PM.
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 855
M
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 855
Originally Posted by pold
Originally Posted by Macy
Originally Posted by pold
Originally Posted by Macy
Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant

I think Ivory American and Galaxy are fun to play (using earphones, not loudspeakers), but as rendered and recorded they invariably sound thin and not at all close to "the real thing".


My only interest in virtual pianos is playing them live and 95%+ of that is through speakers not headphones. You may be right (I have no experience or desire) about rendering and recording them, but I find the Vintage D and Ivory American great to play live and convincing sounding through speakers.

I don't understand where the complaint about speaker limitations is coming from. That is one part of the chain that you can improve independently and nearly without limits (other than your financial resources) to satisfy personal subjective preferences. I use the built-in speakers of my CVP-409GP for virtual pianos and find their response and dispersion very satisfying in my large living room. I also have several much-higher quality speaker systems (including a very expensive full Martin Logan electrostatic surround system which is fantastic), but I don't feel a need to use higher performance speakers with my software pianos. Nevertheless, there's really no technical limit to speaker performance other than cost and subjective preferences.




So far we have never seen any speakers capable of matching an acoustic. To spot the difference you need to compare the two things side by side, and record them with professional mics. Like in this example:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENliynLPfrE

That video does nothing to prove the assertion that speakers are technically incapable of producing the sound of a piano.








That video is not a proof, was just an example. I am looking forward to seeing one day a digital piano that sounds as good as the acoustic. So, I hope you are right.

How is it an example of SPEAKERS being incapable of reproducing the sound of an acoustic piano? How does it show that SPEAKERS are limiting anything? It doesn't. Even if it could be shown that the speakers of that particular instrument are its particular limiting factor, then get better speakers.


Last edited by Macy; 04/24/16 11:19 PM.

Macy

CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,185
D
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,185
I wonder if this might have something to do with the sound stage, the acoustic panorama delivered by a pair of speakers. While throwing enough money at monitors/amplifiers can certainly get you very close to the acoustic spectrum of an AP perhaps the fact that the sound source is coming from a pair of focused points interferes with the 'belief' in the sound and the experience.

Thinking of the better samples, I'd be surprised if plenty of seasoned pianists weren't completely fooled by a blindfold test where they're led in turn to an AP and a decent software setup with good monitoring then asked to say which is which.

Suspension of disbelief is part of the problem which is why deep immersion in one's music is part of the solution. I have a more satisfying 'real' piano experience than with almost any of the APs that have been either in my possession or in my abode. The only snag is, it just doesn't look the part.

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 508
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 508
You mean that there is a speakers system that sounds like an acoustic grand piano? Which one is it? If it was so easy everybody would buy that system, don't you think?

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,699
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,699
@pold: Perhaps a Steinway & Lyngdorf hifi system : http://www.steinwaylyngdorf.com wink


http://www.sinerj.org/
http://humeur-synthe.sinerj.org/
Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 508
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 508
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
@pold: Perhaps a Steinway & Lyngdorf hifi system : http://www.steinwaylyngdorf.com wink


great! If it sounds like a good grand piano it's wonderful. Looking forward to seeing it in action, blind tests, concerts etc. It might be expensive, but after all, even a good grand is very expensive!

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,699
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,699
According to Wikipedia, the model D has been sold US$208,000. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinway_Lyngdorf).


http://www.sinerj.org/
http://humeur-synthe.sinerj.org/
Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,146
J
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,146
"Suspension of disbelief is part of the problem which is why deep immersion in one's music is part of the solution. I have a more satisfying 'real' piano experience than with almost any of the APs that have been either in my possession or in my abode. The only snag is, it just doesn't look the part."

That's the crux of if, for me. I love me AP (Hailun 218), but I admit that I can get into my keyboard, AKG (K702s), and the PV Yamaha can be just as enjoyable---but totally different experience. I suspend belief in ALL these experiences, whether AP or virtual. The whole experience is an act of imagination, something done in the mind, not in the ears.

Last edited by johnlewisgrant; 04/25/16 04:38 PM.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 701
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 701
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
@pold: Perhaps a Steinway & Lyngdorf hifi system : http://www.steinwaylyngdorf.com wink

That's 250K.


Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 770
M
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 770
Great, there we have it. Instead of buying a 250k audio system, we can buy a 150$ house (depending on the market, of course), with a parlour or conservatory grand (Steinway or Boesendorfer)come to mind, for around 80k, and that leaves us with 20k for expert piano maintenance during our lifetime. Problem solved! laugh

L.E.: Silly me, this won't work. It won't be a Steinway D. That's still out of budget. Not to mention how misplaced it would be in a living-room, even a very large one.

Last edited by mcoll; 04/25/16 03:23 PM.
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 855
M
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 855
Originally Posted by pold
You mean that there is a speakers system that sounds like an acoustic grand piano? Which one is it? If it was so easy everybody would buy that system, don't you think?

This is silly. Speakers aren't designed to "sound like" an acoustic piano any more than they are designed to "sound like" a tuba. If a piano has strong resonance peaks or valleys at particular frequencies, or a mechanical rattle on a particular note, you don't design a speaker to have frequency aberrations or resonances, or rattle, at those frequencies to mimic the piano. You capture those resonances, frequency aberrations, and mechanical flaws in your recorded samples (or model them in modeled pianos).

Speakers are designed to produce desired frequency response, efficiency, sound levels, distortion, and dispersion characteristics. It can be expensive (for amplifiers and speakers) to achieve sound pressure levels equivalent to an acoustic grand with desired frequency response and negligible distortion levels, but speaker technology is not a limitation when using multiple drivers. The cost may be beyond a manufacturers target price for most digital pianos but that's a economic design decision, not a speaker limitation. The form factor of a digital piano (slab, console, etc.) may also prevent the designer from using an adequate number or size of speakers, baffles, enclosures, or mounting locations and force volume or frequency response compromises, but those are limitations of the chosen form factor, not a limitation of speaker technology.

Emulating the acoustic dispersion characteristics of a grand piano to produce an equivalent sound field everywhere in a particular room is certainly a challenge, virtually insurmountable from any slab or console form factor. Digital pianos with multiple speaker drivers in a grand piano case have a distinct advantage in emulating acoustic piano dispersion characteristics. But independent multiple-channel speaker systems with room correction can be used to optimize multiple listening positions. Optimizing for a single position (the players position for instance) is far less difficult.

Audio compromises are found at most digital piano price points, even very expensive digital pianos. My relatively expensive DVP-409GP's amp/speaker system won't reproduce the sound pressure levels of a 9' Steinway D, but it is certainly adequate in level and dispersion for my fairly large living room. However, its audio system pales in comparison to the SPL levels, distortion, and frequency response performance of my multi-channel, full electrostatic, home-theater sound system, which cost about 4x the price of the entire DVP-409GP. My point is that speaker technology is not a limitation to reproducing an acoustic piano - but cost is certainly a limitation.





Macy

CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 508
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 508
Originally Posted by Macy
Originally Posted by pold
You mean that there is a speakers system that sounds like an acoustic grand piano? Which one is it? If it was so easy everybody would buy that system, don't you think?

This is silly. Speakers aren't designed to "sound like" an acoustic piano any more than they are designed to "sound like" a tuba. If a piano has strong resonance peaks or valleys at particular frequencies, or a mechanical rattle on a particular note, you don't design a speaker to have frequency aberrations or resonances, or rattle, at those frequencies to mimic the piano. You capture those resonances, frequency aberrations, and mechanical flaws in your recorded samples (or model them in modeled pianos).

Speakers are designed to produce desired frequency response, efficiency, sound levels, distortion, and dispersion characteristics. It can be expensive (for amplifiers and speakers) to achieve sound pressure levels equivalent to an acoustic grand with desired frequency response and negligible distortion levels, but speaker technology is not a limitation when using multiple drivers. The cost may be beyond a manufacturers target price for most digital pianos but that's a economic design decision, not a speaker limitation. The form factor of a digital piano (slab, console, etc.) may also prevent the designer from using an adequate number or size of speakers, baffles, enclosures, or mounting locations and force volume or frequency response compromises, but those are limitations of the chosen form factor, not a limitation of speaker technology.

Emulating the acoustic dispersion characteristics of a grand piano to produce an equivalent sound field everywhere in a particular room is certainly a challenge, virtually insurmountable from any slab or console form factor. Digital pianos with multiple speaker drivers in a grand piano case have a distinct advantage in emulating acoustic piano dispersion characteristics. But independent multiple-channel speaker systems with room correction can be used to optimize multiple listening positions. Optimizing for a single position (the players position for instance) is far less difficult.

Audio compromises are found at most digital piano price points, even very expensive digital pianos. My relatively expensive DVP-409GP's amp/speaker system won't reproduce the sound pressure levels of a 9' Steinway D, but it is certainly adequate in level and dispersion for my fairly large living room. However, its audio system pales in comparison to the SPL levels, distortion, and frequency response performance of my multi-channel, full electrostatic, home-theater sound system, which cost about 4x the price of the entire DVP-409GP. My point is that speaker technology is not a limitation to reproducing an acoustic piano - but cost is certainly a limitation.






Actually speakers are designed to sound more similar to a tuba than anything else. In fact during blind tests with the first Edison phonographs (big horn and no electricity), the real trombone was always mistaken with the recorded trombone. When we talk about speakers limitations we mean that they don't sound as pleasant as an acoustic grand. I don't know if you ever played an acoustic piano, but there is nothing silly in hoping that one day speakers tech will change, to sound like a piano rather than a trombone.

Last edited by pold; 04/25/16 09:01 PM.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,753
T
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,753
Originally Posted by pold
Actually speakers are designed to sound more similar to a tuba than anything else. In fact during blind tests with the first Edison phonographs (big horn and no electricity), the real trombone was always mistaken with the recorded trombone. When we talk about speakers limitations we mean that they don't sound as pleasant as an acoustic grand. I don't know if you ever played an acoustic piano, but there is nothing silly in hoping that one day speakers tech will change, to sound like a piano rather than a trombone.


Brilliant! This is real laugh out loud material. But it does beg the question about the logic of using a soundboard transducer as some top console DPs do.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Page 9 of 11 1 2 7 8 9 10 11

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Shostakovich Second Waltz piano transcription..
by Petoskeyguy - 05/26/22 09:53 PM
Disklavier MKII : replace power supply?
by carlspost - 05/26/22 03:33 PM
Sight reading progress
by BlizzardPiano - 05/26/22 03:18 PM
13th Piano Composition Competition Fidelio (Extended!!)
by harmonium53 - 05/26/22 01:20 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics213,254
Posts3,194,757
Members105,376
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5