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EBVT III for concerts
#2530572 04/14/16 12:35 PM
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I have to tune for a concert in a few days. During the last few weeks I trained the EBVT III and I am quiet happy with the results. I have already tuned many times for concerts in this venue.
Now I want to tune for this concert the EBVT III. Has anyone experiences using the EBVT III in a concert situation? Pianists reactions? On the program is Schubert (voice and piano) and Dvorak (violin and piano).

Thanks a lot for feedbacks.

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Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2530618 04/14/16 02:45 PM
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Hello Toni,

Now I'm learning something new!

http://tinyurl.com/gnf6lwc

thanks,

ian


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Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2530636 04/14/16 04:00 PM
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I guess it depends of the keys of the pieces smile If they happen to use the most "harsh" keys of EBVT III a lot, the singer and the violinist will probably feel the difference in intonation needed for them to match the piano, but both singers and violinists are used to having to intonate after the piano when performing with one since ET isn't just either, of course smile

I don't think the violinist or the singer will typically be aware of the exact beats or the evenness or even progressiveness of ET. They just intonate subconsciously to make things fit, I would guess.


Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004, Kawai MP11 digital piano, Sennheiser HD 600 headphones.
Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2530693 04/14/16 07:24 PM
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Have you checked with the performers, whether they have a strong preference?


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
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Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2530736 04/15/16 12:08 AM
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Here is a video from the Christmas High School Concert that I tuned for and the piano is in EBVT. That's all I ever tune and I have never had one person that has hated it, and it also has gotten my jobs like tuning for this school district. Who would let an 18 year old tune for a concert? Now after hearing how I can make the piano sound they do not want anyone else but me. The piano in the video is a Kawai RX-6. I apologize that the video is so long but please listen to some of it. My favorite piece from this concert is at 15:25. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dwR6aPcp3LU


Lucas Brookins, RPT
Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2530740 04/15/16 12:17 AM
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Here is another video from the high school. They had other high schools from the area come in and this was from their solo competition. Again the piano is tuned in the EBVT. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EdqNXqCQJqo


Lucas Brookins, RPT
Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2530746 04/15/16 12:43 AM
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Last year, I tuned a vintage Haddorff grand to EBVT III for a piano/vocal concert. It worked very well. At the reception after the program, the accompanist sought me out to say how much she enjoyed the sound of the piano. (The vocalists were in their own world. wink )

I have not yet been able to pry a copy of the recording from the maestro vocalist, but as soon as I get a copy, I'll post some samples. There were some very beautiful moments where the pianist and vocalists blended beautifully... At least, that's how it sounded to me from my seat in the balcony.

Go ahead and give it a try!

--Andy

Last edited by Cinnamonbear; 04/15/16 12:54 AM.

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Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2530778 04/15/16 05:15 AM
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Hi to all
Thanks for the link, Ian. I know this graph by heart. It is pretty cool stuff.
I was teached to tune strictly ET and my first attempt to tune an UT was the Koval 1.3. It gave me a new way of listening to the sound of the piano and the music. Since then I have tuned only one time in ET for a very special pianist. I did not dare to tune the Koval 1.3, although it is" under the radar".
Today I tune mostly in stronger UT, the final one is the EBVT III, it became one of my favorites. The reason I ask is that this temperament is useful for all styles of music's But: from the view of a professional pianist it requires some time to be able to use all the advantage of it. Questions of tempo, how to play the third in the temperament section... Interesting questions, once asked and mastered, it is really a great pleasure to play.

Thanks Andy for encouraging me. I will give it a try. There are some pieces in A flat and D flat, but also in B minor. I think the violinist and the singer won't have problems with intonation. I also will be there and listen to the concert.

I watch your videos, Lucas, thanks very much.
The piano sounds great and there is nothing to complain about it.

So I will do my best!
I have always tuned UT in this venue, but they were all more under the radar. My one piano is in EBVT III and every time I play it, I am overwhelmed of the sound.
That is what I want to share with other pianists.

Have a good day folks

Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2531238 04/16/16 02:21 PM
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I may be too late to say this (as in, it is already done) but I say go for it. The EBVT (as I am now calling it, deleting the "III" because the final two steps have been moved to earlier in the sequence), is ideally suited for both Schubert and Dvorak in any key. Both vocalists and string players actually have an easier time with intonation with the EBVT than they do with ET.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2531435 04/17/16 09:22 AM
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Bill, your website still has the sequence that goes from EBVT I to II to III in the last two steps (http://www.billbremmer.com/ebvt/summary_ebvt_sequences.pdf). Can you post to your website the revised sequence with the final two steps moved to earlier in the sequence?


Bob Runyan, RPT
Chico, CA
www.runyanpiano.com
Re: EBVT III for concerts
bobrunyan #2531462 04/17/16 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bobrunyan
Bill, your website still has the sequence that goes from EBVT I to II to III in the last two steps (http://www.billbremmer.com/ebvt/summary_ebvt_sequences.pdf). Can you post to your website the revised sequence with the final two steps moved to earlier in the sequence?


I cannot do this easily since the guy who does my website is in Mexico. I may be getting a new webmaster sometime soon, however.

It's fairly easy though:

  • Move the EBVT II option, (Step 15) to follow step 8.
  • Move the EBVT III option (step 16) to follow step 12.


The only other difference is that step 12 (F#3) is being moved to last (after G#3) so that the sequence follows the cycle of 5ths. It does not really matter which note is tuned first, however. It only makes the sequence more logical in how it goes around the cycle of 5ths, F#3 having six sharps (flats) and G#3 (A-flat 3) having 4 flats.

The reorder does not actually change anything from the final version of the EBVT (EBVT III) which was the version that I alone determined but was approved of by Owen Jorgensen not long before he passed away. It has been incorrectly attributed to Owen Jorgensen but I cannot change what someone else puts on his website.

Neither Owen Jorgensen nor anyone else ever suggested anything to me. I basically only had mocking criticism thrown at me from the peanut gallery. Owen Jorgensen, however was the one person to whom I could turn for analysis and to advise me as to whether or not I had made the right decisions. He found that my final version very closely resembled an idea that Johann Georg Neidhardt had in 1720 but for which he had never designed a sequence.

The "EBVT III" is the only way I have tuned the temperament since 2007 but I had effectively used the final steps long before that without having a proper way to put them into writing.

Therefore, the whole idea is now being called simply, the EBVT and it will remain that way. The concept dates back to 1992 and has basically never changed from the original. Only the specific directions on how to effect it have.

I appreciate all the interest it has generated.

By the way, someone in NYC has just asked me for a referral to a local technician. Anyone know of someone in that market who could do it?



Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2531520 04/17/16 05:04 PM
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The tuning will be next Friday, so it is not too late. I try to do a recording of the freshly tuned piano and one of the concert. The only thing that I ask myself is, if the pianists can handle the EBVT. When I started playing in UT, it took me some time to find out all the possibilities, that an Well temperament offers. I think that the two pianists that are playing have only a short rehearsal time. Maybe they are a little confused. For me it was a complete new playing sensation. I will see...

Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2531541 04/17/16 06:50 PM
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Better not to mention it at all.

If the pianist and other musicians are good, they have their musician's ears right now and will easily adapt.

Some ears are better not knowing about temperaments. Although they can still say if they liked it or not. Or if the instrument is up to the task.

Solid stable unisons and a nice temperament . Any pianist will appreciate that.

I would not be worried in your shoes.

Heck, the pianist might complain about the piano, but not for what you were hired to do. And same pianist not able to explain why such piano was bad.

I don't know.....


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Re: EBVT III for concerts
Bill Bremmer RPT #2531551 04/17/16 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
[...] By the way, someone in NYC has just asked me for a referral to a local technician. Anyone know of someone in that market who could do it?


You can pm Brooklyn's own Zeno Wood RPT. He may still be PTG NYC Chapter president. thumb





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Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2531572 04/17/16 09:48 PM
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I definitely agree with Jean that you should not make a big deal out of mentioning a tuning system with terminology that may be unfamiliar. The EBVT is entirely suitable and will sound great but not at the expense of clean unisons and octaves which must take priotity. Just tune it and leave it for them to enjoy.


Chris Leslie
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Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2531599 04/18/16 12:52 AM
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Another reason I ask is that I know from experience that here around a lot of types who first check the tuning for a proper third progression. Especially such who think they understand everything about how to tune a piano.

But you guys are right, I should not mind too much and I will keep you informed about it is.
Thanks very much for your mental support!

Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2531678 04/18/16 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by TheTuner
Another reason I ask is that I know from experience that here around a lot of types who first check the tuning for a proper third progression. Especially such who think they understand everything about how to tune a piano.

But you guys are right, I should not mind too much and I will keep you informed about it is.
Thanks very much for your mental support!


Only very rarely have I ever seen or heard any pianist check 3rds progression. When they did, they nodded, OK. Perhaps the reason is first of all, that the 3rds are essentially the same as they are in ET, just rearranged. Secondly, it is really only technicians who have such a finely tuned ear for that.

Just about any aural tuner's 3rds are uneven to some degree or another. If the pianist finds them within his or her own personal tolerance or window of perception, then any unevenness is imperceptible.

Those who use Well Temperaments have long discussed what that tolerance may be. Certainly, there are some milder Well Temperaments than the EBVT. However, it can get to a point where the Well Temperament becomes so diluted that the difference between it and ET becomes imperceptible.

Certainly, many people have said when they have heard music played on a piano tuned in the EBVT that they could not perceive the difference. The danger occurs actually when that difference actually is perceptible. Too much is too much and not enough is not enough.

Just go for it and don't say anything. If the pianist does not like it, he or she will tell you. If the pianist really does like it, something may be said but often not. Just enjoy the music but in particular, watch for the body language, the facial expressions.

When the pianist is enjoying what is coming from the piano, you will see that. If they wince, then it means they don't like what they hear. Sometimes, it could even be a little pain is worth the pleasure, so the difference created is still worth it.

A pianist generally adapts quickly to the uniqueness of the piano. It may be perceived, for example that the piano really "pops" in the black keys but that would be what is actually written in the music. So, the pianist quickly feels out the expression that is there now but is absent from all other pianos.

I have had, on numerous occasions, a pianist tell the audience how this piano seems to be so wonderful. Most of the time, a pianist says nothing of the kind to the audience.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2531796 04/18/16 04:04 PM
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It will be wonderful, I know it!

Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2531921 04/19/16 01:12 AM
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It would be prudent to remember that Schubert lieder are among the most often transposed songs in the repertoire. The song cycles are even published in at least three different vocal ranges and often further transposed from there.
The more bleak of these songs can sound comical if the octaves are stretched too much In any temperament.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: EBVT III for concerts
Toni Goldener #2531938 04/19/16 03:32 AM
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Hi rXd
Thanks very much for your inputs. I try to avoid over stretched octaves. Yes, the transposed versions of the songs can cause problems.
Fortunately, in this concert they are all in the original keys. I informed myself about the program and I know all these songs, because I did next to tunings also study piano accompaniment, especially for singers.

If the songs were all one or a half step or even more transposed down, I had to tune something even milder than the EBVT. I have e. g. all the Schubert songs for high, medium and low voice. I did some sight reading, my piano is tuned in EBVT. The original version fits best. The others are ok too, but I believe Schubert chooses for a certain reason a keys of a piece. You only have to read the text and you know why he chooses a particular key.

BTW there are some songs by G. Fauré, too. In remoted keys. They sound amazing, too.


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