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MP11 metronome relative volume #2524580
03/25/16 03:04 PM
03/25/16 03:04 PM
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krikorik Offline OP
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I find that when using the XLR output the metronome volume is too loud relative to the piano one.
When playing piano with the XLR the master volume is bypassed and the piano bank slider volume control (1-100/127 don't remember) and metronome (1-5) digital volume control are the ones that you control besides the external amp one (1-10).
For it to make a balanced output I have to set the amp to 1, metronome to 1 and piano around 80-90
Does anybody find it unbalanced as well? I was hoping the last firmware update to address it but maybe nobody complains

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Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: krikorik] #2524628
03/25/16 06:22 PM
03/25/16 06:22 PM
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Vught, The Netherlands
Dave Horne Offline
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Is it absolutely necessary for you to use the balanced outputs (if the unbalanced outputs would be the solution)?

I remember once many years ago checking out the difference in the noise floor of an amplifier using balanced and unbalanced cables. (The amp was around 450 WPC RMS at 8 ohms.) There was in fact a slight discernible difference when I ran the amp wide open with no input. The difference though would never be appreciated on a real life job, it would go unnoticed.

The question then becomes, why is it necessary for you to use the balanced outputs?



website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: Dave Horne] #2524664
03/25/16 09:26 PM
03/25/16 09:26 PM
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krikorik Offline OP
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Thanks Dave. The balanced output is recommended for higher sound quality and it is a feature of the device. I agree that the difference is minimal, nevertheless it exists and it is sold as a feature. Once you buy cables for that output you want everything to function properly.
I think that the firmware solution is a more elegant solution that restricting the usage mode.

Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: krikorik] #2524725
03/26/16 04:42 AM
03/26/16 04:42 AM
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krikorik, since the keyboard is not being used in a studio situation (where you wouldn't be using the metronome anyway), use the unbalanced outputs and wait until the software update corrects this issue.


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Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: krikorik] #2525234
03/27/16 10:22 PM
03/27/16 10:22 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Hello krikorik,

First, I'm inclined to agree with Dave Horne on the topic of XLR vs 1/4" outputs. Unless there is specific reason to use XLRs (e.g. long cable runs on a live stage that may be prone to interference, or needing to send a fixed signal for the PA engineer to adjust from the mixing desk), the 1/4" outputs are probably more convenient, simply because we can adjust the instrument's master volume from the front panel, rather than reaching over to the mixer/speaker volume.

I tried setting the MP11's metronome volume to 1 (with piano set to around 90/128)and felt it was loud enough to be audible, but not too loud so as to be invasive - which I believe is ideal for a metronome. That being said, I was listening through headphones, and had the Master Volume set to around 50%. If you are listening through monitor speakers connected using XLR, the volume will always be 100% (by design), so depending on the volume of your mixer/speakers, I can appreciate why you may feel the metronome is too loud.

Regarding adjusting this behaviour via a firmware update:

Originally Posted by krikorik
I think that the firmware solution is a more elegant solution that restricting the usage mode.


I'm afraid I do not agree, for two reasons:

1. This would make the MP11 inconsistent with all other Kawai DPs.
2. This could potentially cause volume balance headaches for many MP11/MP7 owners who have previously set their preferred metronome/drum rhythm volumes and stored them to SETUPs.

Therefore, my recommendation would be to set the volume of the PIANO section on the MP11 to the maximum level, while ensuring the metronome volume is set to 1. If the volume of the piano is too loud, either use 1/4" output jacks and adjust the Master Volume from the MP11's front panel, or - if you wish to continue using the XLR outputs - reduce the volume on your mixer and/or monitor speakers.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: Dave Horne] #2525624
03/29/16 09:21 AM
03/29/16 09:21 AM
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krikorik Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
krikorik, since the keyboard is not being used in a studio situation (where you wouldn't be using the metronome anyway)

That's a restrictive assumption

Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: Kawai James] #2525629
03/29/16 09:35 AM
03/29/16 09:35 AM
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krikorik Offline OP
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Thanks James

Originally Posted by Kawai James

First, I'm inclined to agree with Dave Horne on the topic of XLR vs 1/4" outputs. Unless there is specific reason to use XLRs (e.g. long cable runs on a live stage that may be prone to interference, or needing to send a fixed signal for the PA engineer to adjust from the mixing desk), the 1/4" outputs are probably more convenient, simply because we can adjust the instrument's master volume from the front panel, rather than reaching over to the mixer/speaker volume.



Forcing a customer to have two set of cables seems unnecessary in this case if the implementation is done correctly. I solved the problem of the master volume with a known set volume value on the amp. The problem is the relative volume of the metronome. Think it this way: You can mix voices from the 3 banks and regulate the volume of them. You can't do it at the same level with the metronome, which is another voice.

Originally Posted by Kawai James

I tried setting the MP11's metronome volume to 1 (with piano set to around 90/128)and felt it was loud enough to be audible, but not too loud so as to be invasive - which I believe is ideal for a metronome. That being said, I was listening through headphones, and had the Master Volume set to around 50%. If you are listening through monitor speakers connected using XLR, the volume will always be 100% (by design), so depending on the volume of your mixer/speakers, I can appreciate why you may feel the metronome is too loud.


This is the contingency solution I'm using. I have to put the amp volume to 5% , the piano to 90% and the metronome is #1. Does not seems a good set. I rather have all around 50% to work.


Originally Posted by Kawai James


Originally Posted by krikorik
I think that the firmware solution is a more elegant solution that restricting the usage mode.


I'm afraid I do not agree, for two reasons:

1. This would make the MP11 inconsistent with all other Kawai DPs.
2. This could potentially cause volume balance headaches for many MP11/MP7 owners who have previously set their preferred metronome/drum rhythm volumes and stored them to SETUPs.



1-At some point Kawai needs to break compatibility and fix this problem or update all firmwares at the same time
2-The solution is to discretize the metronome volume from 1-128 and map whatever setup value they previously had to the new scale. It is doable if the product engineering and quality care about it.

Regards,
Gregorio

Last edited by krikorik; 03/29/16 09:37 AM.
Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: krikorik] #2525648
03/29/16 10:48 AM
03/29/16 10:48 AM
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Morodiene Offline
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It sounds to me like you have a viable solution to your particular setup:

1) Use 1/4 cables
2) Adjust the metronome volume, amp volume, and piano volume separately.

I'm not sure why you want a 2nd solution.

Have you tried 1/4 cables and noticed a significant difference in quality? Another possible setup is using a DI box, putting 1/4 cables into that (as short as possible) and then XLR out from the box into the mixer. This way you can adjust your volume and not worry about interference in long 1/4 cable runs.


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Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: Morodiene] #2525727
03/29/16 02:20 PM
03/29/16 02:20 PM
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krikorik Offline OP
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Morodiene
Thanks. I got a stereo cable, regrettably when used on the stereo output on a stereo input of a mono amp I have phase canceling and the sound is muted. Of course I can buy another set of cables to add to the cable box collection.

I don't get why if something can be designed and implemented in the right way we discuss alternate solutions. Yes, there are workarounds which to me are patches to a poor implementation or simple fix. A can use my cel phone app for it.

Last edited by krikorik; 03/29/16 06:11 PM.
Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: krikorik] #2525845
03/29/16 08:48 PM
03/29/16 08:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Hello krikorik,

Thank you for your reply.

Originally Posted by krikorik
1-At some point Kawai needs to break compatibility and fix this problem or update all firmwares at the same time


With the greatest respect, you are the only person I am aware of who has reported this 'problem'. Requesting that the behaviour of a function (i.e. the Metronome) which is consistent with all other Kawai DPs, be changed for one individual's needs is a little difficult to justify, I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by krikorik
2-The solution is to discretize the metronome volume from 1-128 and map whatever setup value they previously had to the new scale.


I shall propose this suggestion to the MP development team, however, I'm afraid I cannot make any guarantees that they will agree to implement your request.

Thank you for your feedback.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: Kawai James] #2526142
03/30/16 06:16 PM
03/30/16 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

With the greatest respect, you are the only person I am aware of who has reported this 'problem'. Requesting that the behaviour of a function (i.e. the Metronome) which is consistent with all other Kawai DPs, be changed for one individual's needs is a little difficult to justify, I'm afraid.

James
Thanks for your message and kind wording. I'm surprised that no other people finds this behavior problematic. I wonder if people is using different cabling, not using the metronome, using unbalanced volume settings, or something else. Regardless of it I have a different view, as there are companies that pay people if they find a bug on their coding/product, even if it is a single person that finds it if the bug report is valid there is a reason to fix it. Knowing the Japanese corporate culture of attention to detail and search of excellence my guess is that Kawai will correct it if informed. Time will say.
Meanwhile my solution will keep being the use of my cellphone metronome on top of the MP11.

Last edited by krikorik; 03/30/16 07:17 PM.
Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: krikorik] #2526148
03/30/16 06:42 PM
03/30/16 06:42 PM
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lophiomys Offline
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Krikorik,
Did you check the "Made in ..." plate on your MP11?

Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: lophiomys] #2526156
03/30/16 07:21 PM
03/30/16 07:21 PM
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krikorik Offline OP
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Most companies outsource manufacturing to lower cost geos, and still headquarters set the expected quality level.

Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: krikorik] #2526168
03/30/16 07:58 PM
03/30/16 07:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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krikorik, thank you for your understanding.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: krikorik] #2526274
03/31/16 03:01 AM
03/31/16 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by krikorik
Most companies outsource manufacturing to lower cost geos, and still headquarters set the expected quality level.

That sounds conflicting to me. From my own working experience for a high-tech company shifting work to a developing country: quality levels are "set" on paper by management, but - in most cases - not financed at the "cheap" production facility. On top of that, to achieve (not to say "enforce") first-world quality standards in a developing country would cost the same as if you would do it with an efficient team in more "expensive" economic system.

asoasf

Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: krikorik] #2526296
03/31/16 06:14 AM
03/31/16 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by krikorik
Originally Posted by Kawai James

With the greatest respect, you are the only person I am aware of who has reported this 'problem'. Requesting that the behaviour of a function (i.e. the Metronome) which is consistent with all other Kawai DPs, be changed for one individual's needs is a little difficult to justify, I'm afraid.

James
Thanks for your message and kind wording. I'm surprised that no other people finds this behavior problematic. I wonder if people is using different cabling, not using the metronome, using unbalanced volume settings, or something else. Regardless of it I have a different view, as there are companies that pay people if they find a bug on their coding/product, even if it is a single person that finds it if the bug report is valid there is a reason to fix it. Knowing the Japanese corporate culture of attention to detail and search of excellence my guess is that Kawai will correct it if informed. Time will say.
Meanwhile my solution will keep being the use of my cellphone metronome on top of the MP11.


For home use and even job use, unbalanced cables are perfectly fine.

If you need a long cable run or if you're in a studio situation, the XLR output might be considered. If you're in a studio situation, you won't be needing the metronome, right?

I have the feeling you use the XLR output because you think the noise floor will be lower, thus better. In your own home or even at a club, you won't notice the difference unless you crank up the amplifier wide open and listen to the noise floor. Once you're playing that benefit goes out the window.

There are always discussions here regarding specifications, 256 note polyphony is better than 128. You won't hear the difference but some folks will buy a keyboard because the 'numbers' are better.

James said you're the only person to have reported this issue.

You see, it's really not an issue. Use unbalanced cables for home use, period.



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Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: Kawai James] #2526332
03/31/16 09:37 AM
03/31/16 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai


With the greatest respect, you are the only person I am aware of who has reported this 'problem'. Requesting that the behaviour of a function (i.e. the Metronome) which is consistent with all other Kawai DPs, be changed for one individual's needs is a little difficult to justify, I'm afraid.

Kind regards,
James
x


Artistry in understatement.

Actually, I have always had the exact opposite experience with metronomes: they're never loud enough for what I need. However, you can arrange the volumes (low piano signal against fixed volume metronome) in the piano or, if you do need the metronome in a studio (eg for click track), you can sort it out on a handy mixer. Problem solved whether balanced, unbalanced or even totally unhinged.


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Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: Dave Horne] #2526422
03/31/16 03:09 PM
03/31/16 03:09 PM
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Dave
Thanks for the comments. I can't say people may not use the built in accompanying rithms on a recording studio which are controlled with the same volume as the metronome, or even use the metronome on the piano for somebody else to record a track while listening the piano on the headphones. There are many use conditions, may or not be common is another story.

Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: toddy] #2526423
03/31/16 03:12 PM
03/31/16 03:12 PM
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Toddy
It seems you have not tried the MPs as I described. You'll be more than satisfied with the metronome volume.

Re: MP11 metronome relative volume [Re: krikorik] #2526479
03/31/16 05:30 PM
03/31/16 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by krikorik
Toddy
It seems you have not tried the MPs as I described. You'll be more than satisfied with the metronome volume.


Yes, it should suit me just fine in the metronome department, shouldn't it? From all the reports about the mp11, it sounds like a formidable instrument in many respects!


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