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Bach Invention - Trill question #2519741
03/11/16 12:22 AM
03/11/16 12:22 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 27
T
Tides Offline OP
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Tides  Offline OP
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T
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 27
Hello,
I'm learning Bach's Invention No. 2 in C minor and I'm somewhat vexed about how to play the trills. Specifically, how many notes
are in each exactly? I've looked across several websites and have gotten conflicting answers on baroque trills. Also- I have never played a piece with trills before and I would appreciate any pointers on how best to practice them!

Thank you!

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Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: Tides] #2519753
03/11/16 01:29 AM
03/11/16 01:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 461
C
Coyotewoods Offline
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Coyotewoods  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 461
Hi, Tides!

(Ha, high tides!! I didn't do that on purpose.)

I was curious, since this is all so new to me, and found this tutorial:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzuyxhWO5ng

I'm really liking her approach to teaching this piece, and she does address the trills.

:o))

Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: Tides] #2519765
03/11/16 02:45 AM
03/11/16 02:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,741
Italy
sinophilia Offline

Gold Supporter until Sept. 05 2014
sinophilia  Offline

Gold Supporter until Sept. 05 2014

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,741
Italy
Hi Tides, I think you should download different editions of the Inventions - try Busoni's, it's available on IMSLP. Ornaments are written down, and there's plenty of fingering and suggestions that you can consider.


Diana & Wally - Yamaha W110BW
To create a beautiful sound, one must imagine it at first and then learn to produce fluid physical motions that breathe life into music. (Shirley Kirsten)
http://soundcloud.com/sinophilia - http://youtube.com/sinophilia
Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: Tides] #2519781
03/11/16 05:13 AM
03/11/16 05:13 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,236
Australia
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earlofmar Offline
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Australia
I believe the ornaments of Bach Invention No 2 are actually mordants rather than trills. If you are serious about the Inventions it is best to buy a good book, I have the Alfred Masterwork Edition of Inventions and Sinfonias which has a detailed description of the ornaments and the reasons why they were selected for this particular edition. All ornaments are written out in full and it also comes with a CD so that helps a little. Keep in mind ornaments change from edition to edition and this is why you have conflicting opinions, they are of course all right so play it whatever way you wish.

This clip should at least go some way to helping due to the very slow tutorial, however the edition being used is different to mine so that is why I say it might only help part way.



Problems with piano are 90% psychological, the other 10% is in your head.

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Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: earlofmar] #2519784
03/11/16 05:31 AM
03/11/16 05:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,348
Costa del Sol
SwissMS Offline

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SwissMS  Offline

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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,348
Costa del Sol
I second the recommendation of the Alfreds Inventions and Sinfonias. It greys out the editorial dynamics and phrasing suggestions, but I find them very helpful as a starting point for interpretation.

Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: Tides] #2519809
03/11/16 08:42 AM
03/11/16 08:42 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 684
Austria, EU
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lophiomys Offline
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Austria, EU
Here is Bach's ornament table (another forum member pointed to it in another thread already)
Bach's Ornament Table (and more infos)

IMHO I'd leave out the ornaments during the first learning phase. There is plenty of opportunity to add ornaments at your liking after you are in command of your musical performance.

Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: Tides] #2519810
03/11/16 08:45 AM
03/11/16 08:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,741
Italy
sinophilia Offline

Gold Supporter until Sept. 05 2014
sinophilia  Offline

Gold Supporter until Sept. 05 2014

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,741
Italy
If you're serious about Bach, also check Rosalyn Tureck's "An Introduction to the Performance of Bach". Book 1 has short pieces and book 2 includes one Invention.


Diana & Wally - Yamaha W110BW
To create a beautiful sound, one must imagine it at first and then learn to produce fluid physical motions that breathe life into music. (Shirley Kirsten)
http://soundcloud.com/sinophilia - http://youtube.com/sinophilia
Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: SwissMS] #2519826
03/11/16 10:14 AM
03/11/16 10:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,235
UK
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Alexander Borro Offline
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Alexander Borro  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,235
UK
Originally Posted by SwissMS
I second the recommendation of the Alfreds Inventions and Sinfonias. It greys out the editorial dynamics and phrasing suggestions, but I find them very helpful as a starting point for interpretation.


I have quite a few pieces that omit any dynamics markings or extra annotations, some of the pieces in the Barratt series I use sometimes do this too.

Actually, often I like to attempt a piece where I don't know it, I actually like to not listen to a recording of it all to bias my opinion of how it should be played and see what I make of it.

This is an interesting exercise. Of course eventually I do listen to a recording, or if I struggle with a piece and do not connect with it, I'll probably do it sooner than later.

I think many may find you'll be amazed what you'll come up with your own phrasing, dynamics, etc that in the actual scores where you will find those extra annotations, it often turns out to be very similar. Even little things, thinks like may be sustaining a note here or there, perhaps little dab of the pedal would help here, little things like that.

I wonder if others do this from time to time ? and if it is considered good practice, my feeling is that it is.

OTOH, Many always seem to listen to a recordings immediately as a first step, then start to play the piece. Of course many times I find pieces will be vaguely familiar anyway, you'll have heard it somewhere and will already probably be influenced by that.

A good example I think of for myself, I had a strong connection with a Chopin piece in the end of my Barratt book 1 time ago, but I never heard it before, It's an abbreviated version ( just the start of it ) I don't recall the actual opus/number right now.

By the time my level was a bit ahead of that starter piece as it was in the book and eventually researched the real score and performance, the things I thought that should have been added in that score and I had added were mostly all there. The way I felt it should be played was remarkably similar to an actual performance I listened to afterwards by a well known famous ivory tickler Valentina Lisitsa, including the actual tempo.

Of course it was only the first 4 lines of the beginning of that piece, not the whole thing, the rest would have been far too difficult for a starter piece.

Anyway, that was a really rewarding experience and great moment to enjoy the fruits of my labour on that piece.

In the end, while the music played as written is robotic, it seems to me the brain does have an inner intuition about these things how to interpret scores. If someone asked me how it works, I'd struggle to even begin to explain why that is. Why does anyone make a choice about how to interpret a score, phrasing and so on, perhaps a trill here would be a nice addition ... and so on.

Best way I can put it, it's like an instinct and very much intuition based in some ways, for whatever reason, at least to me it seems to work that way. Perhaps my previous experience in other instruments when I was a wee young lad and had lessons back then, and I guess, just listening to tonnes of all sorts of music all my life ever since I was a child helped with that.

OTOH my music theory knowledge is limited, yes I know the very basics, and enough to sight read, but that's about it, so it is not coming from going through endless books on theory or any of that sort of stuff.

Perhaps I should have posted that in the achievement of the week thread when that happened, but never did. smile

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 03/11/16 10:25 AM.

Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: sinophilia] #2519861
03/11/16 11:53 AM
03/11/16 11:53 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 461
C
Coyotewoods Offline
Full Member
Coyotewoods  Offline
Full Member
C
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 461
Now I know what your username means! :o)

Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: Coyotewoods] #2519867
03/11/16 12:11 PM
03/11/16 12:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,235
UK
A
Alexander Borro Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Alexander Borro  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,235
UK
Originally Posted by MooseNotes
Now I know what your username means! :o)


I don't even know what it means, it reminds of the Spanish for some form of altered donkey, and have been called that during Spanish lessons, and I've been called many other names including 4 eyes in school for wearing specs.

It happens when you are foreign and the Brits butcher all the names along the way and make fun of it. Of course, when I lived in Ireland for some time during my childhood too, most surnames started with O' ..... an 9 out of 10 pupils were called Sean by their first name, So there wasn't much to play with to make fun of, I was the obvious target laugh


Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: Alexander Borro] #2519873
03/11/16 12:27 PM
03/11/16 12:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,348
Costa del Sol
SwissMS Offline

2000 Post Club Member
SwissMS  Offline

2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,348
Costa del Sol
Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
Originally Posted by SwissMS
I second the recommendation of the Alfreds Inventions and Sinfonias. It greys out the editorial dynamics and phrasing suggestions, but I find them very helpful as a starting point for interpretation.


I have quite a few pieces that omit any dynamics markings or extra annotations, some of the pieces in the Barratt series I use sometimes do this too.

Actually, often I like to attempt a piece where I don't know it, I actually like to not listen to a recording of it all to bias my opinion of how it should be played and see what I make of it.

This is an interesting exercise. Of course eventually I do listen to a recording, or if I struggle with a piece and do not connect with it, I'll probably do it sooner than later.

I think many may find you'll be amazed what you'll come up with your own phrasing, dynamics, etc that in the actual scores where you will find those extra annotations, it often turns out to be very similar. Even little things, thinks like may be sustaining a note here or there, perhaps little dab of the pedal would help here, little things like that.

I wonder if others do this from time to time ? and if it is considered good practice, my feeling is that it is.

OTOH, Many always seem to listen to a recordings immediately as a first step, then start to play the piece. Of course many times I find pieces will be vaguely familiar anyway, you'll have heard it somewhere and will already probably be influenced by that.

A good example I think of for myself, I had a strong connection with a Chopin piece in the end of my Barratt book 1 time ago, but I never heard it before, It's an abbreviated version ( just the start of it ) I don't recall the actual opus/number right now.

By the time my level was a bit ahead of that starter piece as it was in the book and eventually researched the real score and performance, the things I thought that should have been added in that score and I had added were mostly all there. The way I felt it should be played was remarkably similar to an actual performance I listened to afterwards by a well known famous ivory tickler Valentina Lisitsa, including the actual tempo.

Of course it was only the first 4 lines of the beginning of that piece, not the whole thing, the rest would have been far too difficult for a starter piece.

Anyway, that was a really rewarding experience and great moment to enjoy the fruits of my labour on that piece.

In the end, while the music played as written is robotic, it seems to me the brain does have an inner intuition about these things how to interpret scores. If someone asked me how it works, I'd struggle to even begin to explain why that is. Why does anyone make a choice about how to interpret a score, phrasing and so on, perhaps a trill here would be a nice addition ... and so on.

Best way I can put it, it's like an instinct and very much intuition based in some ways, for whatever reason, at least to me it seems to work that way. Perhaps my previous experience in other instruments when I was a wee young lad and had lessons back then, and I guess, just listening to tonnes of all sorts of music all my life ever since I was a child helped with that.

OTOH my music theory knowledge is limited, yes I know the very basics, and enough to sight read, but that's about it, so it is not coming from going through endless books on theory or any of that sort of stuff.

Perhaps I should have posted that in the achievement of the week thread when that happened, but never did. smile


I agree with this to some extent, but I think it takes time to develop a feel for a piece, especially if there are no dynamic indications. After practicing a piece for a while, what you play sounds "right". Especially as a beginner/intermediate it can be helpful to listen to youtube recordings to get a feel for what the piece should sound like.

The Alfred Inventions/Sinfonias book is only one interpretation, and sometimes my teacher disagrees with it. She prefers the Henle, which we use as well, but I at least use the Alfred's suggestions as a starting point. On some inventions and sinfonias, I find the phrasing and dynamics is not as intuitive as in a lot of other pieces.

Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: Tides] #2519889
03/11/16 01:11 PM
03/11/16 01:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,235
UK
A
Alexander Borro Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Alexander Borro  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,235
UK
Thanks SwissMS

It's fair to say the stuff you are practising is far more complicated in any case also. It not a case of it always works for me, and of course hearing things I should hearing that I am probably missing is a good chance of that happening too. Still there have been pieces where it worked well, at least as far as I can tell, that is of course an assumption I can only be a judge of without regular lessons and listening to recordings of my own, and what is played by the proper pianist on places like youtube and make a comparison etc. Even if I don't get it to sound quite like that, but in my head I am clear what it should sound like ( as best as I can on my own, its all part of the fun).

Of course I do not do it as a matter of course all the time. intermittently, problem is most stuff I have already heard in some form at one point or another, so probably already influenced and/or biased by that.

Sometimes I have not much of feeling at all with some pieces to know what to do with them. I think some of it is already being familiar with certain types of music and styles that one listens to also and played before, perhaps on another instrument or in groups as I have done and also listening to that stuff.

For example, as a child I was hammered with baroque pieces on the recorder so much so, for many years, I was entirely fed up with it by age 12, probably why I stopped back then. laugh

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 03/11/16 01:13 PM.

Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: Alexander Borro] #2519935
03/11/16 03:33 PM
03/11/16 03:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 461
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Coyotewoods Offline
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Coyotewoods  Offline
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Oh, whoops!

I meant Sinophilia. I sure hope you didn't think I called you a jack-something-or-other.

:o))

But it was still fun reading your response. It seems Sinophilia has more than one meaning, but one has to do with Bach's work.

Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: Coyotewoods] #2519944
03/11/16 04:19 PM
03/11/16 04:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,235
UK
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Alexander Borro Offline
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Alexander Borro  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,235
UK
Originally Posted by MooseNotes
Oh, whoops!

I meant Sinophilia. I sure hope you didn't think I called you a jack-something-or-other.

:o))

But it was still fun reading your response. It seems Sinophilia has more than one meaning, but one has to do with Bach's work.


Not at all seen as an insult, I presumed you were referring to me since it was the last post without quote.

The only thought that occurred to me I wondered what you found in the interpretation of my name I would have been curious hear it, since I had no idea. I forgot to ask at the time what that was.

I am always ready for a good joke. Actually, when I was in school being made of fun with my name, I saw the funny side of it too and had a chuckle. I wouldn't want to miss out on that. grin


Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: Tides] #2520862
03/14/16 07:58 AM
03/14/16 07:58 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,091
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RaggedKeyPresser Offline
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Orig. land of Svear&Götar
Watch Karl Richter playing some Bach ornaments, from 38:38 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehb...DAiIWXEzXl0rLe9fpfHCnE1GvmCO-nSh3-gNj32Q


Czerny's Piano School Vol. 1. Reviewing basics/ear training/analysis in interesting exercises.
Opus 599. Now at #77 and giving it a break.
Re: Bach Invention - Trill question [Re: Tides] #2522796
03/19/16 11:45 PM
03/19/16 11:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 461
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Coyotewoods Offline
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Tides, because of this discussion you started, my piano life has gained some wonderful focus. I'm going to start writing about it on my website soon.

And today something awesome happened: I found a copy of Alfred's edition of Bach's two-part inventions. I'm intending to focus on the Henle edition, but I'm excited to have found this today at Goodwill. It was a whopping 99 cents.

There are lots of notes on trills and gobs of additional notes throughout. I'm thrilled to have this as my first book in my Bach library.


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