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Joined: Jan 2015
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OP
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I have a funny (sad?) story about the self-tuning guitar. I too had a design for a self-tuning guitar about 15 years ago. It was totally different from the piano system. I had my patent attorney conduct a patent search on it.
Then one day I got back the letter from him. I opened it and read it as I was walking from the mailbox to my apartment. It said that I passed the patent search and could file for a US patent. I was still reading it as I sat down in front of my computer to check my emails. I had an email from a forum member that said, "Don, check this out", with a link. The link was to the Transperformance site featuring their new self-tuning guitar! They were so far along that I decided to abandon my project.
Don
Last edited by Self Tuner; 03/17/16 05:25 PM.
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Mr. Gilmore - so nice to see this project evolve, as I remember your earlier posts on the forum many years ago, and was worried that it was stuck in an early prototype phase.
Any chance we'll see it at NAMM sometime, or something along those lines?
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Actually, I was invited to show it at this year's NAMM show in January. Unfortunately we weren't ready in time...maybe next year.
Don
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If this works and is not overly expensive, it could save the acoustic piano business. Throughout the development of musical instruments it's the instruments that best play and stay in tune that survive. The acoustic piano's tuning issues, so far, can not compete with keyboards.
"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
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Would this affect the string's overall lifespan?
What do snowflakes and Chickerings have in common? There are no two exactly alike!
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Would this affect the string's overall lifespan? I can't speak for Don, but it seems to me the physical effects of the added expansion and contraction (heating and cooling) of the steel strings may well have some detrimental affect on the life-span of the strings. That is if you turn the device on and off frequently. I suppose you could leave the device on and never turn it off, and that would be less expansion and contraction. But, that's just a thought for the sake of conversation. I'm sure Don has factored that into the equation.  Rick
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
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Joined: Jun 2013
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What is the electric power consumption?
Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
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I'm a degreed mechanical engineer with 30 years' experience. Heating strings to 95 F affects them in no way whatever. Effects like creep occur at many hundreds of degrees. The keys in your pocket are warmer than these strings.
Obviously, the power consumption depends on how far the piano is out of tune. Worst case is if you are tapping the entire 7000 cent pool. At that point you would be consuming 1000 watts. For comparison, a hair dryer consumes about 1600 watts, a steam iron, 1800 W.
Don
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Ando, I deal with realities. I can assure you that unless you've worked in the field, that you've never even heard 1% of what actually goes bad, bang, or poof out there with electronics in the real world. And I beg to differ; the reliability of parts and components surely are my concern, especially if I'm paying for them and they're strung about my wooden piano like Christmas lights. On the job I would always seek out and got management approval to pay a premium for well known and proven electronics and components, instead of ordering the cheapest thing I could find, which never lasted and always seemed to fail at the most innopportune of times. It took some doing but I found that maintaining a good stock of controls, along with their associated electronics, temp sensors, pressure gauges, chemical pumps, feed pumps, motors, valves, and whatever else, was actually cost affective and gave me peace of mind as well. Did this prevent electronic component failure resulting from damage due to broken pipes, leaking valves, or power spikes/surges? No, but the aformentioned did happen on occassion, with virtually no warning or signs of impending danger. Electronics of course operate via electricity, and electricity has more potential than just operating your power drill; it creates heat in components, and can, with the use of transformers, create very high voltages from very small electrical sources either through coils or via electronics (think stun gun). Add something as simple and as common as dust and moisture to the mix, and the potential for excessive heat and fire absolutely exists, along with possible personal injury should you be create a short by accidentally mingling between components or a power source and ground. The fact that I don't consider this "invention" exciting, or have faith in electronics through a not-so-favorable personal experience with them as stated in my original reply and this one, isn't negativity, it's my prerogative to express, gleaned from years of experience, which surely I am allowed to possess and share, along with my dislike of seeing a lovely accoustic piano with wires and electronic components strewn about its innards  As such I'll happily pay my tuner thankyouverymuch. Some reading material for you Read the above, which is devoted to how many everyday products manufactured by well known manufactures can and still go awry, then purchase and have Serial #1 of these tuning device inventions installed in your piano, and let us know how well you sleep at night  Regards, Andy
1979 Yamaha C7D
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I can see this being great for remote pianos. When I visited remote locations when I worked in Western Queensland, I ran into pianos which I guessed saw a tuner every decade. One person said that a tuner did a tour every 2 or maybe even 3 years.
And in the heat and humidity of many of those locations, pianos were quite unstable - the place where I was based is only 100F deg (and 15% RH) today (it's early Autumn (Fall) here), but will vary from 32F to 115F deg (or more) over a year, and I just looked at humidity - over the last 6 months which varied from 7% to 87%.
Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
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Ando, I deal with realities. I can assure you that unless you've worked in the field, that you've never even heard 1% of what actually goes bad, bang, or poof out there with electronics in the real world. And I beg to differ; the reliability of parts and components surely are my concern, especially if I'm paying for them and they're strung about my wooden piano like Christmas lights. On the job I would always seek out and got management approval to pay a premium for well known and proven electronics and components, instead of ordering the cheapest thing I could find, which never lasted and always seemed to fail at the most innopportune of times. It took some doing but I found that maintaining a good stock of controls, along with their associated electronics, temp sensors, pressure gauges, chemical pumps, feed pumps, motors, valves, and whatever else, was actually cost affective and gave me peace of mind as well. Did this prevent electronic component failure resulting from damage due to broken pipes, leaking valves, or power spikes/surges? No, but the aformentioned did happen on occassion, with virtually no warning or signs of impending danger. Electronics of course operate via electricity, and electricity has more potential than just operating your power drill; it creates heat in components, and can, with the use of transformers, create very high voltages from very small electrical sources either through coils or via electronics (think stun gun). Add something as simple and as common as dust and moisture to the mix, and the potential for excessive heat and fire absolutely exists, along with possible personal injury should you be create a short by accidentally mingling between components or a power source and ground. The fact that I don't consider this "invention" exciting, or have faith in electronics through a not-so-favorable personal experience with them as stated in my original reply and this one, isn't negativity, it's my prerogative to express, gleaned from years of experience, which surely I am allowed to possess and share, along with my dislike of seeing a lovely accoustic piano with wires and electronic components strewn about its innards As such I'll happily pay my tuner thankyouverymuch. Some reading material for you Read the above, which is devoted to how many everyday products manufactured by well known manufactures can and still go awry, then purchase and have Serial #1 of these tuning device inventions installed in your piano, and let us know how well you sleep at night Regards, Andy It's not the case that you must have worked in the field to have an appreciation of it. My family is full of technical people, mostly engineers, who have worked in such fields. I've heard almost as much about product/process innovation growing up and all the way into my adulthood as an engineer. I also have a scientific background so my understanding wasn't just workaday, outside-looking-in type stuff. I studied physics and electronics to degree level. I knew what they were talking about with their projects, and sometimes I even came up with solutions for their technical problems. That said, you sound terribly jaded. I've met your type before. You think you've seen it all, so nothing surprises you, nothing excites you. I don't expect you to be excited by the technology or complexity of this tuning system. I agree it's quite a simple technology, but from the perspective of people who would like their piano to be in tune all the time, it is exciting. And somebody did have to actually come up with the idea. Not only did Don come up with the idea, he built it, and it works. That deserves credit. You should be able to see that if you are able to step outside of your professional jadedness and think like a piano-loving musician. Your incredulity that this system could work is disappointing. As an engineer, or whatever you are, you can see potential problems, but you should also be able to envisage solutions. My family were employed to iron out problems in things like this. Usually they were able to do so without the project being scrapped. It honestly makes me wonder what's going on in your industry if you can't solve problems and immediately jump to the position that this is unviable. Surely if you know what you are on about, and with such a simple invention, you can also see how you could make it work. Don is an engineer himself - don't you think he can conceive of the same complications you can? Especially given he's actually built the thing and knows it intimately - whereas you know very little and are basically doing some drive by scathing criticism. So, go pay your tuner, but I'd request that you leave this thread because you have no intention to add to it meaningfully other than to register that the idea is no good - which you have done.
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At that point you would be consuming 1000 watts. For comparison, a hair dryer consumes about 1600 watts, a steam iron, 1800 W. Hi Don, Interesting invention, but when you leave it on continiously, you have an unexpected heater in your room of 1kW. That is a lot! I am not sure if that is appreciated much in the summer. In the Netherlands it will cost you €1500+ a year on electricity. Cheers, Hans
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Although I admit that this is a worst case scenario...
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At that point you would be consuming 1000 watts. For comparison, a hair dryer consumes about 1600 watts, a steam iron, 1800 W. Hi Don, Interesting invention, but when you leave it on continiously, you have an unexpected heater in your room of 1kW. That is a lot! I am not sure if that is appreciated much in the summer. In the Netherlands it will cost you €1500+ a year on electricity. Cheers, Hans I don't think you need to leave it on all the time. Just when you play.
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At that point you would be consuming 1000 watts. For comparison, a hair dryer consumes about 1600 watts, a steam iron, 1800 W. Hi Don, Interesting invention, but when you leave it on continiously, you have an unexpected heater in your room of 1kW. That is a lot! I am not sure if that is appreciated much in the summer. In the Netherlands it will cost you €1500+ a year on electricity. Cheers, Hans I don't think you need to leave it on all the time. Just when you play. But then, don't forget to preheat the piano.
phacke
Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Toccata (G minor) BWV 915
(and trying not to forget the other stuff I know)
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What would be the price of the system?
Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
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Indeed. So it depends on the pre-heat time. Any idea about the time it takes to get a stable tuning? (Of course one also could switch it off during the night, etc.)
And when the system can import tuning files from the free Entropy Piano Tuner app, you even don't need a tuner any more!
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Indeed. So it depends on the pre-heat time. Any idea about the time it takes to get a stable tuning? (Of course one also could switch it off during the night, etc.)
And when the system can import tuning files from the free Entropy Piano Tuner app, you even don't need a tuner any more! Don't need a tuner? I don't agree... but it would free up more of my technician's time for regulation. I am a little concerned that the system uses heat. I own a vintage upright, and my technician has strongly recommended I not add a Damp Chaser system, as he believes the heat would affect the old glue. Are the amounts of heat similar? Could this be used in vintage pianos?
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Any idea about the time it takes to get a stable tuning?
Don said two minutes in a post above. Larry.
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I looked at some of the publicity. The price quoted is $1,000.
I notice that the original patent was filed on 6 Maw 2003. Will that have lapsed?
The later patent seems to be from December 2015, so that is rather more recent.
I am looking forward to listening to the NPR programme about it all. It was, after all, they who brought us that wonderful item on Shadd pianos.
Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
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