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I posted earlier this week about my visit to the local Baldwin Dealer in Greensboro, NC, to begin the search for a small grand to replace my wife's Cable Nelson upright.

Today I drove over to Winston-Salem to visit the YC dealer for our area. They had the PGs, JPs and a couple of Schimmels on the floor (beautiful piano, beautiful tone, out of our price range).

I thought the YCs sounded great, at least as good as the Baldwins, which I did not expect. A couple of individual pianos (5'9" and a 6'1") I thought sounded better than the 6' Baldwin I saw. BTW, both showrooms were similar in size and carpeted, and both had multiple 5' through 6' models to demo.

I want to get some personal experience or opinions of contributors of this forum on Baldwin v/s YC. Don't take this as a loaded question, I am looking to find how my brief encounter with these two brands compares to others more extensive and knowledgeable experience.

Right now I am definitely leaning toward the YCs.

Thanks, Bill

IMO, you are leaning too fast. You are making the cardinal piano buying sin of not considering all of your options.

Many of the folks who have played them really like the JP series Young Changs. Many feel that the PG series represent good values.

Personally, I cut my teeth on a Baldwin, and would prefer one over YC, if money was not an object.

But like I said in the first sentence, you need to play some more pianos. Petrofs, Estonias, Kawais, Knabes, Yamahas. Even Schulze-Polmann, Charles Walter, perhaps even a Pleyel, and other pianos within, and outside of your budget. If you still prefer the YC, you've found your piano.

Just don't quit dancing, before you give all the girls a whirl!

Personally, I cut my teeth on a YC, and would prefer one over Baldwin, if money was not an object.

True story.

Baldwin is a fine piano, and it's a pity they are undergoing so much financial difficulty. And it seems they're not honoring their past guarantee commitments. YC is honoring their commitments. An important point.

For the money, (and that's for the money--the YC's are NOT competing against the $100,000 pianos on the market,) the YC is the best value piano sold today.

I own one, (as well as a Steinway,) and feel it is dollar for dollar the best value.

Also try the Weber--it's a YC "stencil" (and that would be in the loose translation of the word,)piano that is also very good.

But DO try out other pianos--lots.

You probably went to the same YC in Winston Salem that I went to. They were just about to open when I went. The dealer was nice.

I too suggest that you visit more dealers and look at more pianos. It sounds like you are just getting started.

If you can go to Raleigh, there is a great dealer there (Ruggero Pianos)that carrys Estonia. I posted about them in a recent thread. You might like to take a look. He also has M&H, Boesendorfer, Schimmel, and Charles Walter but they might exceed your budget.

I didn't mean to infer that I was ready to buy Baldwin after two visits to dealers, just that I was a little surprised at finding how comparable the two are. Just shows how little I know.
And I was just wondering where I could possibly check out Estonia after reading some other posts. A trip to Raleigh is in the near future.Thanks for the tip.

Willy:
Don't be surprised. Young Changes are good pianos. Though they are "mass produced" they are of good quality and are worth the price. One think I should mention is after you listen or try other pianos, if you still like the Young Chang then get it. I think different people have different tastes in pianos. For instance, I wasn't too crazy about Petrofs. They have great bass but they didn't seem as "accurate" as the Estonias I played. But that's to me. What I really think is that to my taste -- I preferred the Estonias to the more powerful Petrofs.

But then again, I really like Kawais. And there are millions of Yamaha people out there who prefer Yamahas to Kawais -- anyway, enjoy your search. You'll have a lot of fun, and you may find that the choice may not be that easy.

Edit: Young Changs don't look too shabby either. I think I saw a Knabe (Samick) in bubinga that was simply gorgeous. Don't forget to add that into the equation. So many finish choices nowadays!

Unfortunately I cannot agree with the YC lovers in this group. I have played many at several local dealers(Seattle) and did not like them. Even the Pramberger which is supposed to be this wonderful piano, does nothing for me. I try to be optimistic each time, in fact I used to hate Baldwins. The last time I was at the Baldwin YC dealer I played both again, this time there was a Baldwin grand that really blew me away.

The interesting thing is that there was a baldwin right next to it that had a much heavier action and the sound was blah.

My point here is that a particular brand can have a reputation and I can tell you til' I'm blue in the face that it's good, but at the end of the day you have to be happy with it.

Yeah, I have noticed already that even when two of the same brand and model are on the same showroom floor, one may be bright and the other mellow. Which is why I would shy away from buying a piano sight unseen. My wife and I would want to hear and play the individual piano we are considering.

I had the oppportunity to play A YC, 7' or so that was twelve years old. I suspect it was only played 20 hrs a week and it was shot in my opinion. It hadn't been regulated or voiced. The strings, buzzed, the hammers weren't straight, Most notes above middle C were muted and inconsistent. (I guess I'm saying it aged ungracefully) I used to hate Baldwins, because they seemed uncomplex. I now have a 25 yr. old grand and tho I hopefully can upgrade in ten years to something else, I am pleased with it, and yes, its complex enough for me at this time.

Interesting discussion. The "too bright/too mellow" thing is a commonly used reason people give for thinking they need to play the piano before they buy it. Call it "the Goldilock's Syndrome" - this one is too dark, this one is too bright, this one is just right . 90% of people feel this way, and I understand why they do.

But in reality, this is not a reason to insist on seeing a piano (assumption made that we are discussing new pianos here) before buying it. What one perceives about the tone of a piano is partially determined by touch, a psychological factor that very few people buying pianos are aware of or can even accept as true. The condition of the hammers determine the rest, making the assumption here that one understands that no technician can take a 10K Korean piano and make it sound and play like a 50K premium piano.

Choosing a piano using the "too dark/too bright" method while common, isn't really the all that accurate. Once the piano moves from where you heard it to where you'll play it, this is going to change anyway. A technician can in just a couple of minutes make changes that totally alter this, leaving the owner with the opposite of what he bought the day it is delivered. Any good technician can take a given brand/model piano and make it sound exactly like any other example of that brand/model you've ever played. Let's say for example that I showed you two grand pianos of the exact same brand and model, one in black, one in mahogany. You loved the sound and touch of the black one, didn't like the tone or touch of the mahogany one, but wanted a mahogany piano. Using the "Goldilocks" method, you would have to leave, saying "he had the look I wanted, and he had the sound and touch I wanted, but just not in the same piano - I guess I'll have to keep shopping". In reality, you just missed out on getting the exact piano you were looking for, since I can make either one of these pianos play and sound exactly like the other one. The key here is not in finding the exact piano using the Goldilocks method, the key is in determining what a given brand and model of piano is capable of giving you, and finding a technician capable of tweaking the piano until it to your ears and hands is at its peak.

For example, Jolly knows what a Nordiska grand is capable of giving him. He could order 50 of them in crates, and any good technician can make all 50 of them virtually indistinguishable from each other. But --- he cannot make them sound or play like a Baldwin, or a Yamaha, etc. You could order 50 Korean grands, find one you like, and any good technician could make all 50 of them feel and sound just like the one you chose. But he could not make any of them feel or sound exactly like a Yamaha, or a Baldwin, etc.

It is not the Goldilocks part (too dark, too bright) that is important really. This is too much of a "shotgun" approach to touch and tone, and is very common among first time shoppers (and I don't say that to poke at first time shoppers, it's just that the more experience one has at anything the more knowledgeable you get at determining what is and what isn't important). Broad general changes from mellow (dark) to bright are easily changed. What cannot be easily changed is a piano's ability to produce a wide pallette or colors as one goes through the dynamic range of the piano, or even the scope of that dynamic range itself. Little can be done to alter how well a piano will maintain its integrity over time, how well it will age. Or whether time will produce an improvement in the piano's tone production, or whether the piano is at its peak when new and will do nothing but deteriorate over time.

These kinds of things are what makes the difference between this brand and that, this price and that, this dealer and that. Once you have determined what a given price range is capable of offering you, what the brands in that price range are capable of offering you, which of those brands is most capable of offering you what you are looking for, and you are confident the dealer is capable of giving you what he must be able to give, the issue of which exact instrument is academic. You can order the piano with no worries, fully confident that the piano that comes out of the crate once put in the hands of the dealer or his tech will be adjusted to give you exactly what you have learned that this brand and model is capable of giving you.

Yesterday I played a Baldwin Hamilton made in 1950. Brand new hammers, dampers, etc... It's maybe the most beautifully voiced upright I've ever played. Jazzy, complex, sensitive, and not honky tonk sounding at all. Larry as usual is right.

Fredster

Between a Baldwina and a YC PG or JP, I'd go with the YC. BUT, that is simply my personal taste in the way a piano sounds and feels.

The advice given several times above is right on however. You need to play LOTS MORE pianos before making a decision.

Regards,
Dan

www.engineeringandmusic.de/individu/galealex/gaalproc.html

A link that gives reenforcement to Larry's post, by a pHD in acoustical engineering.

Who says that the ear is the determinate factor?

I think Larry is one more smart cookie and makes many good points in his post.

But...since we are coming into a NAMM show next week...you can bet that Phil Glenn has uncrated at least 2 of each larger PG and JP piano (as do many manufacturers) in order to have a choice and find one capable of producing the best sound/feel combination.

If 50 Nordiskas can be made to sound virtually indistinguishable, why does Phil (and others) do this?

Just a question.

'betcha Phil Glenn doesn't do that. Check the 'ol
rmmp board, and look for posts by pianocat88, who has prepped at NAMM before, and read some of her comments about the quality of the prep of some of the NAMM pianos.

I'll take that bet. What are the stakes?

I'm not familiar with the rmmp; I get enough interesting reading from one board. I have no doubt about the quality of the prep work for NAMM, or the techs doing the work. I am certain it's all top notch.

I'm just wondering why they unbox two JP228s, of same finish, for selection to go to the show.

MichealP,

1)What is your source at YC?

2)FYI,pianocat88 is Lisa Weller, a well thought of tech, and no, her opinion of piano prep at NAMM does not agree with yours.

3)If one board is enough, didn't you post behind me yesterday on Mr. Land's board?

So MichaelP, 1)why is Mr. Glenn uncrating two pianos of the same make? and 2) What are your credentials that allow you to challenge the statements of a RPT that has prepped pianos at more than one NAMM?

And one other thing - what brand(s) are we slanted towards? This place at its' best is like herding cats!

Inquiring minds....

My opinion is each piano has its own subtle unique character. Fifty Nordiskas, or any other brand, equally prepped would display a general bell shaped curve with regard to sound. Some brighter, some warmer, (pick your own attribute here), with the mean being more characteristic of the manufacturing philosophy.

That sentiment was hinted at in other posts in referring to the organic nature of the instrument; felt and wood being the primary crucial components.

I haven't conducted an analysis of all the posts, but there is a preponderance of YC fans here. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. I'm not touting or downing any piano. Each has its benefits: price, quality, prestige, value.

Statement of credentials is over-rated. It can be a crutch for lack of objective thinking. "I'm so and so, therefore, I'm right."

But I could be wrong...