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GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) #2515465
02/27/16 04:28 PM
02/27/16 04:28 PM
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Ableton82 Offline OP
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Hi all,

Today I was able to compare the Grand Feel I action to the Grand Feel II at a local store and there was no comparison for me. The Grand Feel II felt better for me. That said, I've also narrowed my search down to the VPC1 as I plan on relying on software instruments. Unfortunately I wasn't able to try the RM3II action on the VPC1.

Has anyone compared the Grand Feel Action II to the RM3II? I assume the GFII is closer than the GF1 to the RM3II?

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Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: Ableton82] #2515470
02/27/16 04:46 PM
02/27/16 04:46 PM
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Actually no. The GF and GF II feels very similar to each other compared the RM3. If you think there is that much difference between GF and GF II, I would not buy the VPC1 blind. You absolutely have to try it to see if you're willing to live with it or get the MP11 instead.

Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: Ableton82] #2515817
02/28/16 11:16 PM
02/28/16 11:16 PM
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Tried starting a thread on that and it didn't get very far. Hopefully, more people with experience will chime in this one. smile


Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p
Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: Ableton82] #2515839
02/29/16 02:48 AM
02/29/16 02:48 AM
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alerique Offline
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I think this comparison was made many times on this forum. I had a chance to compare them when I was deciding if I want to pay extra for CA67 or CA17 would be enough.

In short, RM3II is a great action that is very similar to GFII, but the keys are shorter. As a result, it feels slower, sort of more "sticky", and playing further up the keys is substantially harder then on GFII. So GFII is superior in every way, however in its own right RM3 is a great thing.

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Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: alerique] #2515926
02/29/16 10:38 AM
02/29/16 10:38 AM
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Ableton82 Offline OP
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Thanks! Yea, I was able to compare Grand Feel I and Grand Feel II and I noticed a big difference and absolutely fell in love with GFII which is making me debate going w/ a CA67 vs the VPC1 which I have not had the chance to play. Sounds like the RM3II action is probably closer in feel to GFII than it is to GFI so maybe I just roll the dice and try it.

Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: Ableton82] #2515932
02/29/16 11:11 AM
02/29/16 11:11 AM
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alerique Offline
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Originally Posted by Ableton82
Thanks! Yea, I was able to compare Grand Feel I and Grand Feel II and I noticed a big difference and absolutely fell in love with GFII which is making me debate going w/ a CA67 vs the VPC1 which I have not had the chance to play. Sounds like the RM3II action is probably closer in feel to GFII than it is to GFI so maybe I just roll the dice and try it.


Sorry to rain on your parade but it is not. GFII is definitely close to GF then to RM3II.

Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: alerique] #2515998
02/29/16 02:06 PM
02/29/16 02:06 PM
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Ableton82 Offline OP
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interesting. GFII was heavier which I loved than the GFI. RM3II is supposed to be heavier feeling than the GFI.

Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: alerique] #2516011
02/29/16 02:47 PM
02/29/16 02:47 PM
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Alexander Borro Offline
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Originally Posted by alerique
I think this comparison was made many times on this forum. I had a chance to compare them when I was deciding if I want to pay extra for CA67 or CA17 would be enough.

In short, RM3II is a great action that is very similar to GFII, but the keys are shorter. As a result, it feels slower, sort of more "sticky", and playing further up the keys is substantially harder then on GFII. So GFII is superior in every way, however in its own right RM3 is a great thing.


I am not an experienced player by any means, but I fully agree with this assessment, FWIW. I know this goes contrary to some of the reviews and also pianomanchuck reviews comparing them saying it is quite subtle, but to me they felt quite different and the shorter pivot could really be felt as soon as you were about half way up the keybed compared to GF2 that I tried side by side on the same day.

I'd say the increased feel in resistance as you move up the keys I felt was not greatly different to my Casio ( not saying for anyone thinking it felt anything like my Casio but, only in that respect. ) overall it did feel superior, but for me RM3II felt like an unnecessarily heavy action anyway. Good for those with naturally heavier touch I suppose and like that type of thing, or those that play real grands a lot with that type of heavier action it would presumably be good practice tool for that to swap between,

Since none of that applies to my case, it wasn't worth it for me to consider a VPC1 as I didn't really enjoy that keybed so much anyway when I tried the CA17, and rather just pick a digital action I liked the feel of, without too much attachment to how real/close it is to a real grand ... for now anyway. Who knows I may sing a different tune in few years time if I owned a grand, but I don't and not sure I will for a good while yet, one day perhaps, it is on the radar laugh

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 02/29/16 02:48 PM.

Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
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Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: Alexander Borro] #2516093
02/29/16 06:20 PM
02/29/16 06:20 PM
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Ableton82 Offline OP
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Thanks for your feedback on those actions. I'm starting to swing back towards the MP11 now to get the GFI action. Only other Kawai route to go would be a CA67 which is closer to $3500. Ooof..

Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: Ableton82] #2516133
02/29/16 10:00 PM
02/29/16 10:00 PM
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Henry Pasternack Offline
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Quote
I am not an experienced player by any means, but I fully agree with this assessment, FWIW. I know this goes contrary to some of the reviews and also pianomanchuck reviews comparing them saying it is quite subtle, but to me they felt quite different and the shorter pivot could really be felt as soon as you were about half way up the keybed compared to GF2 that I tried side by side on the same day.


I'm still trying to get a DP purchase approved by the War Department. The last time I broached the subject, a couple of weeks ago, the response was less than favorable. Something about my spending too much money on "toys..." I have been reluctant to press the point. :-(

WRT PianoManChuck -- or anyone's review for that matter -- I think it's fair to say everyone is going to have different sensibilities and preferences. After watching PMC's performance videos, I have to imagine he and I might not agree on what constitutes a "subtle" difference. I would like to see some similar videos put up by someone with a more... formal... playing style.

I played the MP11 and CA97 in person and found the difference between GF and GF2 to be small but noticeable. I do prefer GF2, but wouldn't consider it to be a deal-breaker.

There is a local piano store with a new-old-stock MP10 on the floor. In principle the MP10 should play much like the VPC1. Unfortunately, they couldn't find the necessary 1/4" plug adapter to actually connect the thing to speakers or headphones, so trying it out was mostly pointless.

I have doodled on the Kawai key action demo units you find at the piano store and the difference in the feel between RM3 and GF seems pronounced to me in that context. But it's very hard to know how that translates to actual feel when the key mechanisms are incorporated into a complete instrument. I've watched every video I can find of people playing the VPC1 and have to say, for pianists of genuine ability, the RM3 action doesn't seem to be holding them back...

I really love the simplicity and elegance of the VPC1, but just like everyone else would like to see a VPC2 produced with a top-of-the-line action.

-Henry




Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: Ableton82] #2516150
02/29/16 11:19 PM
02/29/16 11:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
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I just ordered an MP11 today and will report back my thoughts on it; compared to the MP10 that I had and sold. I have high hopes for it.

I will be measuring the down and up weight of the board to make sure it meets or exceeds what I like to play in an action. If it is too heavy for my sensitive hands then it will probable go back.



Kawai MP11 (v1), iMac 2017, Yamaha HS8's, Sennheiser 650, Focusrite 2i4, Pianoteq 5, Steinway Model A, Mason and Hamlin Model AA
Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: HwyStar] #2516279
03/01/16 10:40 AM
03/01/16 10:40 AM
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Sabinnie Offline
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Originally Posted by HwyStar
I just ordered an MP11 today and will report back my thoughts on it; compared to the MP10 that I had and sold. I have high hopes for it.

I will be measuring the down and up weight of the board to make sure it meets or exceeds what I like to play in an action. If it is too heavy for my sensitive hands then it will probable go back.


Have you measured any other DPs? If yes, I'd be very interested in those results.

I've been having problems with my hands on my DP but have not come across anyone else who seems to have "sensitive hands" as well, as you call it. I'm experiencing wrist pain and tendon issues.

I measured up and downweight on my DP (HP 506), and the Upweight was a crazy high number which I am thinking might be what is causing my problems. If you know of any DPs with a lower Upweight I'd really like to hear about them!

Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: Sabinnie] #2516300
03/01/16 12:10 PM
03/01/16 12:10 PM
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Fer De Armas Offline
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Hi, try a Kawai CN34, IMHO it DP has a amazing key action, similar in downweigt to that in HP506, but has a much more reasonable upweight that is not going to hurt your wrists, hands and fingers. Regards!.

Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: Ableton82] #2516333
03/01/16 01:42 PM
03/01/16 01:42 PM
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HwyStar Offline
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The specs for my AP are as follows:
C0: 52,22 = 74
C3: 47,22 = 69
C5: 43,30 = 73

I just measured those keys yesterday in preparation for receiving the MP11. My piano technician adjusted my AP so that my hands and fingers would have limited reasons to complain about up and down weight aggravation that can cause injuries. After doing some reading this weekend, one source suggested that most pianos should be adjusted to be "around" a total of 70gm when you add the up and down weights together. My AP seems to be set right - at least for my tastes! I'm still a hack at piano. What do I know?



Kawai MP11 (v1), iMac 2017, Yamaha HS8's, Sennheiser 650, Focusrite 2i4, Pianoteq 5, Steinway Model A, Mason and Hamlin Model AA
Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: Ableton82] #2516438
03/01/16 07:20 PM
03/01/16 07:20 PM
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I've also got an MP11 in shipment... I previously played a CA93 (with RM3 Grand action), but I won't be able to side-by-side them.


Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: HwyStar] #2516544
03/02/16 04:43 AM
03/02/16 04:43 AM
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Sabinnie Offline
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Originally Posted by HwyStar
The specs for my AP are as follows:
C0: 52,22 = 74
C3: 47,22 = 69
C5: 43,30 = 73


Yeah, that seems similar to my acoustic at home. Upweight was between 25 and 29 across the keys. On my DP Upweight is more around 40 - 45. =(

Please do let me know what you find with the MP11, I'm eyeing Kawai's GF action as a possible replacement.

Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: Sabinnie] #2516569
03/02/16 06:46 AM
03/02/16 06:46 AM
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Fer De Armas Offline
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Hi Sabinnie, are you tried Kawai CN24/34 ?...

Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: Fer De Armas] #2516582
03/02/16 07:59 AM
03/02/16 07:59 AM
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Sabinnie Offline
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Originally Posted by Fer De Armas
Hi Sabinnie, are you tried Kawai CN24/34 ?...


Yes, I tried the CN43 - I did not like the action much, it felt sluggish to me.

Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: Sabinnie] #2516588
03/02/16 08:44 AM
03/02/16 08:44 AM
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Hookxs Offline
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Originally Posted by Sabinnie
Originally Posted by Fer De Armas
Hi Sabinnie, are you tried Kawai CN24/34 ?...


Yes, I tried the CN43 - I did not like the action much, it felt sluggish to me.


For real? I think you'll have a hard time finding faster action.

Re: GFII vs. RM3II (CA67/97 action vs VPC1 action) [Re: Hookxs] #2516598
03/02/16 09:18 AM
03/02/16 09:18 AM
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Sabinnie Offline
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Originally Posted by Hookxs
Originally Posted by Sabinnie
Originally Posted by Fer De Armas
Hi Sabinnie, are you tried Kawai CN24/34 ?...


Yes, I tried the CN43 - I did not like the action much, it felt sluggish to me.


For real? I think you'll have a hard time finding faster action.


Well to be fair, I alternated playing the CN34 with the CA95, so that might have been the issue.

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