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Koval ET (kind of?)... #2514276
02/24/16 01:06 AM
02/24/16 01:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,423
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline OP
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Well, it's been almost a year since I posted a thread that included my tuning disaster with a previously neglected vintage Lester grand (here), in which thread Mr. McMorrow (who I respect a great deal) said, "It's all wrong!") laugh Shortly after that Ron Koval (bless his darlin' heart!) gave me some pointers about something called "double octave stretch" using the SAT, but I am sad to say that I have not mastered that finer point of the blue box that is the SATIII. Around that time, Ron also shared offsets for an ET of his, but again, I am sad to say that I could not get them into the SAT in a way that would allow that little blue computer to do it's calculation thing.

Ever since then (almost a year ago! Did I mention that, already? Where does the time go?), I have really wanted to try Ron's temperament--and now, especially after hearing Grandpianoman's piano in the "For Verituner owner's" thread, I really wanted to give it a try. But, not being a Verituner owner, I didn't want to muck up that thread with the muck I made today, so I figured I'd just start this one, and let it die a swift death when its time came, probably swiftly.

So, I am happy to say that I had a brainstorm this morning in a "bound and determined" kind of way that I wanted to try something to see what I could learn. The piano I worked with today was a neglected Yamaha G1 in my church's neglected choir room. The piano's steel strings are a little rusty. Some bass strings are a little tubby. The hammers are hard. Some dampers are crooked. It needs regulation. Yada-yada-yada.

I used the SAT to tune the temperament octave, putting in the offsets note by note with the "cents" button for each key A3 to G#4. Then, I made the best, solid unisons I could in that octave. Then I did the rest by ear, octave by octave up, then octave by octave down. One problem I had immediately is that Ron's offsets go to the 100th place, and the SATIII only goes to the 10th place. So, I decided to round. Not really knowing what I am doing, I am sure this screwed up the intervals. How much, and in which direction I should have tempered, I know not. My roundings from Ron's offsets are in parentheses:

A = 0
A# = -1.13 (-1.1)
B = -0.65 (-0.6)
C = 1.3
C# = -0.17 (-0.2)
D = 0.52 (0.5)
D# = 0.78 (0.8)
E = -0.52 (0.5)
F = 1.3
F# = -0.35 (-0.3)
G = 0.87 (0.9)
G# = 0.35 (0.3)

I used temperament strips and wedge mutes, and re-checked the temperament octave to the machine every so often when something was irking me. I readily admit it took 4-1/2 hours, and I really could/should have taken another hour to go over it again, but by that time I was out of steam. In fact, I was kind of flagging when I finished the upper octave, and still had the bass to do! blush In the recording, I hear things I did not hear at the piano. Like, the second 3rd that I play, F#3-A#3 sounds *really* bad, which means, presumably, that I did not get the octave right after setting F#4 from the offset I put into the machine, an offset that I rounded. And other chaos like that.

Anyway, if anyone is at all interested, here is my attempt at tuning from today. I learned a ton. Any and all criticism and pointers will be gladly received.

It goes: 3rds from F3/A3 to F4/A4, Octaves F3 to A4, some 5ths, then some 4ths through the temp. octave, then some quadruple octaves across the span of the piano, then some major arpeggios across the scale. Then, Bach's Prelude in C from WTC1. Then the Prelude from Handel's Keyboard Suite No. 5 in E. The playing is pretty clompy. My hands were a little stiff, and my ears and hands were still in banging mode. Excuses, excuses, and yada yada yada some more. smile

https://app.box.com/s/hnriwzoukpbmkekqmcwsri78l4h61e71

Thanks, everyone.
--Andy


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
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Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2514344
02/24/16 09:32 AM
02/24/16 09:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,039
Chicagoland
RonTuner Offline
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Wow, what a project!

The other thread is all about an automated stretch to match any piano using the Verituner - that would be the part you did by ear, in addition to the width of the A3-A4 octave.

Not the same as this - a very mild well temperament applied via older technology and then expanded out via octave matches by ear. Perhaps someone familiar with the SAT you have can help with suggestions for how to load in custom temperaments? That might give you an easier path to give this a try!

Sounds like the temperament octave came out with the usual slower-faster progressions that we find with well temperaments. I didn't listen all the way through, but will have a chance later today.

- experimenting is good - we tend to learn something in spite of ourselves! Good work!

Ron Koval


Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2514366
02/24/16 11:19 AM
02/24/16 11:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,549
KZ, Uralsk
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear

It goes: 3rds from F3/A3 to F4/A4, Octaves F3 to A4, some 5ths, then some 4ths through the temp. octave, then some quadruple octaves across the span of the piano, then some major arpeggios across the scale. Then, Bach's Prelude in C from WTC1. Then the Prelude from Handel's Keyboard Suite No. 5 in E.

The music pours wonderful. This is fine, especially Handel sounds confident and good temperament here. But a little octaves overpriced by my sensation . This is just my feeling. Excellent temperament, Andy. Thanks

Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2514552
02/24/16 09:20 PM
02/24/16 09:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 218
Janesville WI
Lucas Brookins RPT Offline
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Janesville WI
Sounds pretty good from what I can hear in this noisy place that I'm in. The only thing that I could really hear is a slow beat in a unison every now and then, but good job Andy!


Lucas Brookins, RPT
Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2514559
02/24/16 09:58 PM
02/24/16 09:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 889
B
Bosendorff Offline
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Hi Cinnamonbear,

I see you wrote -1,13 instead of 1,13 for A#/Bb.

If it's a typo that's fine, but if you used the negative value then you end up with a less tempered F#/A# M3rd and Bb/D becoming the most tempered M3rd of the temperament. But since you mention you disliked the F#/A#, it's probably just a typo. This temperament is very mild, so it would be difficult to detect by most ears.

Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Bosendorff] #2514567
02/24/16 10:58 PM
02/24/16 10:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,423
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline OP
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Originally Posted by RonTuner
[...] we tend to learn something in spite of ourselves! [...]

Ron! LOL! That is the true story of my life! grin Thank you for listening and for being so doggone encouraging!

@ Max -- Thank you for your kind comments and helpful observations!

@ Lucas -- The same!

@ Bosendorff -- Actually, it's not a typo. I guess that would be a question for Ron. But, after my experience today, I understand much better what you are saying. Thank you!

Today, I worked on the previously neglected Lester (mentioned above), and employed basically the same method as with the Yamaha, but today I figured that those places where I rounded were really the places where I should *listen* and tempre, and fudge in the direction of the rounding. I had the darndest time getting C# to fit with the F after getting the C# to fit with the thirds on either side of it. I got a pretty nice progression of thirds--I mean, I could actually hear them do pretty much what they were supposed to do, and I finally decided to scootch the F. Argh. By "industry standards," I spent waaayyy too much time on the temperament octave, only, I didn't care about that really, because I was learning, learning, learning and I wasn't on anyone's clock but my own, and so I pretty much relaxed and let the lesson have it's effect, I think. I hope. The part that really frustrated me today (besides the C#) was getting the bass tuned. I was not happy with it at all. But, by the time I was wrapping it up for the day, people were coming into the room for a meeting and said it sounded pretty nice. But, we all know how "normal" people hear pianos... So, I didn't put any stock in those comments. Plus, I was playing some foxtrots, so, what's not to like about that on almost any piano's extant tuning? laugh Anyway, I'm going back tomorrow morning to go at it again on that little Lester grand, and make a recording of the fruits of my efforts.

Thank you, everyone, for your interest and helps!

--Andy

Last edited by Cinnamonbear; 02/24/16 11:04 PM.

I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2514575
02/24/16 11:54 PM
02/24/16 11:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,549
KZ, Uralsk
Maximillyan Offline
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Maximillyan  Offline
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KZ, Uralsk
Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted by RonTuner
[...] we tend to learn something in spite of ourselves! [...]

that little Lester grand, and make a recording of the fruits of my efforts.

Hi,Andy
We shall wait a records fruits yours temperament

Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2514580
02/25/16 12:18 AM
02/25/16 12:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,625
Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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Canberra, ACT, Australia
Andy, I don't hear the second M3rd as being so bad except there are some unison issues clouding the beats a little. I would expect minor variations in the progression because of the temperament. I do hear however a very fast 5th at about 3bps and I though this would be too fast for a mild UT.

When you tune the Lester bass, try if you can to hear 10th and then 17th beats as you go down the scale. Over-stretching will make them beat comically. They should descend towards a slow roll - a good rule for any piano.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2514582
02/25/16 12:25 AM
02/25/16 12:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,651
Delaware (slower/lower)
Ralph Offline
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Well done Andy. I wish I had your ears. But then you would look pretty strange without them.


Do or do not. There is no try.
Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Ralph] #2514900
02/25/16 10:56 PM
02/25/16 10:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,423
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Ralph
Well done Andy. I wish I had your ears. But then you would look pretty strange without them.


If you choose to listen to what I did today, you might change your mind, Ralph! Plus--and this is just a thought mind you--you might look pretty strange, yourself, sporting a quadraphonic fashion. grin

--Andy


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Chris Leslie] #2514945
02/26/16 02:12 AM
02/26/16 02:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,423
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
[...] When you tune the Lester bass, try if you can to hear 10th and then 17th beats as you go down the scale. Over-stretching will make them beat comically. They should descend towards a slow roll - a good rule for any piano.


I almost hesitate to share this next recording.

This is the little Lester vintage baby grand:

[Linked Image]

It's like 4'8" or something. The serial number is 143,000-something. It's strings are *very* rusty. The bass strings are *very* tubby. The soundboard is cracked *very* badly, right through the decal (not that that matters or anything...). There is pintite evidence, plus, I doped it with CA last year, and it might even could use another shot.

It is a very hard piano to tune--at least it is for me at this point. But... it has some beautiful, redeeming qualities to it, sonically! And it has pretty little waterfall keys that feel good to play.

If I could just put a frikkin' tuning on it to bring those nice qualities into the air!!! GRRRR! and ARRGH!

I have put three different "machine tunings" on this little piano since it was brought out of retirement, and have not been happy with any of them, really. And not this one either, an aural tuning in which I was fudging around with Ron's offsets in the temperament octave (as described above with the Yamaha). I thought I had something, too! I fixed a few unisons in the temperament octave this morning, but did not check them to the machine. And now, I am *definitely* not happy, especially after all the time I spent on this. It did not sound quite so bad with my ears in the piano as it does with my ears in the headphones, but GOSH it sounds BAD! (Be careful what you wish for, Ralph, my good friend! Who knows how Ferengi ears would hear our instrument in this time, regardless of temperament?) I mean, this piano sounds REALLY BAD after I "tuned" it!!! My step-dad always said, "The camera doesn't lie." I think the digital recorder does not lie, either.

On the BRIGHT side, I think I managed to create a temperament that SOUNDS BAD in ALL KEYS! smirk

For cry eye!!! eek

Anyway, if anyone cares to endure as much of this recording as you can endure and tell me what in the heck went wrong with what I thought was not going wrong until I believed I was finished with it... I mean, when I did the arpeggio choirs, I found one bass note in particular that was WAY out of place. But, by that time I really had to press on with the morning because I had other things to do, so I just went on with recording. Then, I played "Beach Spring" from the Blue Hymnal, and could not continue because it sounded so bad! I'll probably go back and put a machine tuning on it next week and hope for the best. It will get played for an event in April (I'll be the one playing it, too!), and I won't let this tuning sit on it for that.

Funny thing is, I stopped by a friend's house this afternoon and played her Kimball petite baby grand that I tuned a year ago (an SAT tuning), and that piano sounded GOOD. I mean, it actually sounded really, really pleasant--the kind of pleasant where I would have not been able to live with myself if I had suggested that she should pay me to tune it, since it was due for a tuning. I had to say to her, "Your piano sounds good! I'm kind of surprised!... It does not really need to be tuned! Let me play it some more to make sure..." (I had stopped by to take a look at the lid prop, which was resting on the strings when the lid was closed, so it was making an annoying clicking sound whenever D6 (I think it was) was played). She and I play for each other for time to time, and I was quite happy to play a number of tunes for her and her impromptu guests, for the better part of an hour. (It really was mostly a social call... Long story longer... PM me if you want details... Details like, what kind of sandwich I got out of the deal, and how many loaves of bread I walked out of the door with, and why there was fresh bread to begin with, and so on.). Honestly, I just wanted to sit there and play it some more, it was that pleasant. But I had to press on with the afternoon, because I had other things to do.

What a crazy juxtaposition. Maybe the Kimball just sounded good by comparison, and I was relieved to hear something that wasn't so... *BAD*!? crazy

I cannot believe I am posting this...

Chris, I really appreciate your pointer about the bass, but I think perhaps I did not get it to roll enough, and certainly not progressively down the scale. I was hearing something like an "Ow-wow" dip-kind-of roll at the attack. Leaving it there and making it as consistent as I could down the scale definitely sounded better than what I had yesterday, so THANKS for that clue! Now, if I could just learn what to really do, and on *any* piano (as you say), and especially this one! grin blush

All of that is to say, "Please do not listen to this recording!" I mean it!!!

DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS RECORDING!!!

But if you do, thank you in advance for your unvarnished honesty.

https://app.box.com/s/o6orugc17w5x8cs34btofgy0yjxzezld

If you want to skip around, here are the markers (subtle spontaneous vocal editorializing throughout):
00:06 - 00:33 M3s, starting at F3/A3
00:33 - 00:39 F3/F4, A3/A4, F3/A4 (not necessarily in that order)
00:42 - 01:13 M5s
01:14 - 01:45 M4s
01:48 - 05:30 Bass octaves + 10ths + 17ths, starting at F#3 (the first wound bi-chord) and down
05:30 - 07:36 "Arpeggio Choirs," up, including Ab, my "not a nemisis" key, that turned into a nemesis key today (Bb is my worst nemisis key, which I now call "my new favorite key" just to wrap my head around the needed change of attitude... Another long story for later, perhaps by PM if you are interested).
07:42 - 09:36 "Stairway to the Stars" in C maj.
09:48 - 11:36 "What A Night For Spooning - Charleston" in F maj.
11:46 - 12:16 "Beach Spring" hymn tune in F maj., stopped abruptly in line 3 because the fourths and fifths sounded so atrocious
12:21 to end, WTC1 C maj. Prelude, just because that's what one plays for this kind of thing, right?...

We shall now let this thread die its swift death, if you please, shan't we?, for it has nothing to do with Ron Koval's ET of any kind. I think my next aural experiment will be "ET via Marpurg."

However, I promise that among my next recordings will be two Handel keyboard suite movements for the "Theme and Variations" e-cital, on a piano that I know and love and can actually tune in "EBVT III via SAT III," because I did not tune it originally but can make the spinning lights stop when they need to stop... wink And, I may post one of them, "The Harmonious Blacksmith," to GP's "My Piano In EBVTIII" thread, because that's where I learned of that piece first, and I have promised to post my recording of it there. Sorry for the "bump" when it happens.

Rachmaninoff did not necessarily get it right.

"The Harmonious Blacksmith," that is.

That's what irked me to learn it. "The Harmonious Blacksmith," that is.

And, "pride comes before every fall."

(my paraphrase, that was)

--Andy







I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2515004
02/26/16 07:32 AM
02/26/16 07:32 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Andy, I can relate to your pain. Were you tired or stressed when doing this tuning?

I'm not sure what sort of "fudging" you did in the temperament octave, but your run of M3s, 5ths and 4ths makes it very clear that some notes in the temperament are quite far out.
G#3-C4 is very slow.
F3-C3 is beating much too fast. Together, these seem to suggest that C4 is flat.
A#3-F4 is beating much too fast, as are F4-C5, F#4-C#5. You seem to have expanded some temperament errors through the compass.
F3-A#3 is too fast, as is G#3-C#4, C4-F4, C#4-F#4...
All in all, I think that this temperament just wasn't ready to go.

Octaves: The F#3-F#4 octave seems to have quite a roll/beat.
A4 seems to be beating much faster with F2 and F3 than A3 does, suggesting to me that A3-A4 is very wide, especially on such a short scale.

Also, there are several unisons that appear either to be phasing and/or detuned. C2? E5?

Please, don't be too dejected. As I said, I can really relate. Old, rusty steels and tubby wraps on a short scale with crusty hammers, that's enough for most any beginner or amateur to run away crying, myself definitely included.

See how you do with ET via Marpurg. For me, it was a huge help to rough things in more easily. And from there, U3-U3-D5 was an even greater help.

Whatever you do, don't lose sight of having fun. And enjoy the weekend!


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2515043
02/26/16 09:44 AM
02/26/16 09:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,549
KZ, Uralsk
Maximillyan Offline
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Maximillyan  Offline
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KZ, Uralsk
Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
[...] When you tune the Lester bass, try if you can to hear 10th and then 17th beats as you go down the scale. Over-stretching will make them beat comically. They should descend towards a slow roll - a good rule for any piano.

09:48 - 11:36 "What A Night For Spooning - Charleston" in F maj.
Hi,Andy
Detuned or "live" unisons can be heard without any digital measuring device, unfortunately. In addition, the basses also far from perfect. Perhaps loose pins here?
That, as "What A Night For Spooning - Charleston" in F maj. is acceptable, I think. If would be your piano stood on a legal address in the tavern, you do not need would be nothing to change. Such inaccuracies in temperament only added a certain charm. If necessary, all should be corrected and the M3, octaves and narrow 5
Regards, Max





Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Mark R.] #2515197
02/26/16 07:16 PM
02/26/16 07:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,423
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline OP
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Hi, Mark! I wasn't really stressed. Definitely clueless. smile Which is why I thank you very much for your helpful observations. I was very discouraged, yesterday. Maybe ear fatigued, and trying so hard to get that piano to sound nice, because there is something in there I like. It's just too far above my ability level right now. But, I know the experience was not wasted, and I'll get there, eventually.

I forgot all about U3-U3-D5! Thanks for that reminder!!!

Hi, Max! Thank you for listening again! I agree, the Charleston fits! laugh

--Andy

Last edited by Cinnamonbear; 02/26/16 07:20 PM.

I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2515257
02/26/16 10:23 PM
02/26/16 10:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,651
Delaware (slower/lower)
Ralph Offline
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Delaware (slower/lower)
Wow, Andy. What happened? It's amazing how off kilter things can get. I've been there many times my friend. Sorry, I have to go and repack my ears. They're bleeding again. blush


Do or do not. There is no try.
Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Ralph] #2515263
02/26/16 10:43 PM
02/26/16 10:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,423
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline OP
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Rockford, IL
LOL! I know, Ralph!!! laugh I'm about ready to pay someone else to tune it, just to see what it can sound like under experienced hands (and ears)! grin


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2515278
02/27/16 12:29 AM
02/27/16 12:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,549
KZ, Uralsk
Maximillyan Offline
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KZ, Uralsk
Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
I'm about ready to pay someone else to tune it, just to see what it can sound like under experienced hands (and ears)! grin

Hi,Andy
You can do it yourself, i'm think so. It's will be perfect sound in standard pitch 440. A perfection has no limits in its genesis.
Be persistent, and Lord standing nearby will help yours grand piano tuning always.
Good luck!
Max

Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Maximillyan] #2515347
02/27/16 10:29 AM
02/27/16 10:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,423
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline OP
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Thank you, Max! I remain undaunted and shall return to the challenge! thumb


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2515413
02/27/16 02:59 PM
02/27/16 02:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 8
South Africa
Z
ZAGrand Offline
Junior Member
ZAGrand  Offline
Junior Member
Z

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 8
South Africa
Hi Andy

Have you considered trying Entropy piano tuner for the Lester? You did mention that you didn't like the other machine tunings. Maybe a reduction of entropy would be a better bet on a sub optimal piano. It won't even cost you a penny.


Absolute beginner tuner
Re: Koval ET (kind of?)... [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2515423
02/27/16 03:29 PM
02/27/16 03:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,651
Delaware (slower/lower)
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ralph  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,651
Delaware (slower/lower)
So.......... I listened to it again. First of all, I never knew you are a Star Trek fan Andy.

Sorry but It really didn't sound any better the second time. There are some great examples of wolf intervals. If anybody wants to know what a wolf interval is, it's a 4th that howls. I think everybody here already knows that. My wife walked in the room, looked at my face and asked me if I was sucking on a lemon. I must of had my face all scrunched up. Fortunately I know what you are really capable of Andy and you'll subdue that beast yet. The only sounds you know how to make are beautiful.


Do or do not. There is no try.
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