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I am looking to get a grand piano. I have narrow it down to Kawai RX-3 and Estonia 190. Both are roughly around the same asking price. Which grand give me a better bang for my buck?

Thanks in advance!

Assuming you've played them both, which sound do you prefer?

I have just gone thru the exact same situation with the same two pianos. I think there is actually about a $2,500-$3,000 price difference, at least with the dealer that I worked with. Not really much when you amortize it over many years. Search thru this forum, lots of discussion about both of these pianos especially the Estonia as of late.

Good luck,

FrankR

I would lean towards the Kawai, but that's just me. If you don't care then get which ever is less expensive. Both will give you about the same quality over the life of the piano. Good Luck

Brandon

Interesting question. Bang for the buck. There are so many variables. In spite of Norb's continuous bragging about how many great components are in the Estonia, when it comes down to it, the Kawai probably has a better resale value over time. That doesn't mean I'd buy one over the Estonia. If both were the same price I'd probably pick the Estonia, but I've not heard both head to head.

There is no point in *bragging* about any the components of any piano because they don't matter.

This has been established beyond discussion here.

And 'resale value' should also be no factor.

[Even though the prices for Estonia grands have almost doubled over the last seven years and we just sold one for a customer who trade up to a 6'3 for about $ 3000 more than he paid 3 years ago...]

Buy the piano you like better,or - if it matters to you - is simply cheaper!

Norbert

Bri,

Forbes magazine did an article on the Estonia calling it "Today's best value in grand pianos", Sept. 15, 2003. This is a financial magazine and the comment was intended to portray investment value.

Now if you are looking for a good investment, buy American stocks (i hope) - but their point is in todays market, they are probably going to do well in resale. I happen to agree.

My devalued 2 cents,

I have owned my Estonia 190 for three years. It is a wonderful instrument and has given me much enjoyment, especially when I'm winding down at the end of a busy day.

I regularily play a Kawai at church. It is a fine piano too, but to me the warmth and color of the Estonia sound is much more satisfying than the predictable and "hard" sound of the Kawai.

I also played four Estonia 190 models before selecting the one I purchased - two were in another state and two were from the local dealer. Each had a distinct sound and I selected the one that spoke to me. You will notice that most of the folks who post here finally say buy the one that speaks to you.

Let us know what you decide to do.

Terry

I've compared them, and I like the Estonia better, but you need to buy what sounds best to you. They are both fine pianos. Each is well constructed, neither currently carry the prestige (aka resale value) of a top-tier piano...but Estonia might someday. Are they really the same price? I would have thought that the value of the dollar and the EU status of Estonia (the country) would have pushed the price of the Estonia (piano) upward.

Since the dealer here carries Kawai and Estonia it was easy to compare the Estonia 190, Kawai RX 3, and Shigeru SK 3 without stepping outside.

Disclosure: I own an Estonia.

I personally would not put emphasis on the "resale value" argument at all. Buy the piano you like most within your budget and leave some money to take good care of the piano after you buy (good maintenance is key to resale value). Then enjoy the piano for what it is, and let the "resale" factor take care of itself.

On pricing, it would appear to me that if indeed you were quoted the same price for a black Estonia 190 and a black RX-3, you might find it benefitial to bargain harder for the RX-3 if that is what you like better.

MarkS' suggestion to find a dealer who carries both and compare them head-to-head is certainly a good one.

Good luck.

Disclosure: I own a Kawai.

Good call Axtremus. You need to try them side by side if at all possible. I have to admit that historically *for me*, Estonia's weren't my bag (I'd played about 4). They were OK, but always just OK. But I recently played a 190 that was brand new out of the box, and it had some serious kick in it, which is what I thought the others lacked. So, my opinion has changed with Estonia as I now know what they are capable of.

Same with Kawais... I've played some that were OK, and others that were pretty damn good (including an S. Kawai that was to die for). It just goes to show you that it depends on what particular piano you happen to be playing at that particular time/day.

Never underestimate the piano showroom acoustics either. You never really know how the thing's going to sound until it's in your house!

Ooh, Mark S. Please tell us more about your assessment of playing the Kawai RX3, Estonia 190 and Shigeru SK3 all at one dealer. These are 3 of the pianos I'm considering. I don't know of a dealer in my area that has all 3 of these pianos side by side (that'd be great.)

I have played the Kawai RX3, and Shigeru SK3. The Estonia 190 I intend to get to on my piano quest soon. All of the buzz on this website about the Estonia makes me hopeful it may be the one. (Still don't like the idea of the fake wood lid)

Mark: How do you compare these 3 pianos to one another?

How was the sustain in the treble area? (Important to me.) Which piano do you think had the most sustain?

Did you find any of these 3 to open up more tonally - to change in tonal color - when you played them more loudly? Did you find the Kawai's Shigeru "opened up" when playing more loudly? My initial impression is the Shigeru's tone remains more or less the same, it's almost as though a volume knob is simply being turned up to make it louder-that it lacked tonal color, if you will. But I have to say I loved playing this piano and found myself playing very expressively, I love its big voice!

Can you comment on how much power, the range of dynamics, the Estonia posseses compared to the Shigeru and RX3? I really like the big voice of the Shigeru (and the Mason and Hamlin.) I've heard some comments regarding Estonias lacking "power", but perhaps the newer ones are better. What did you think?

How would you compare the Estonia's tone to Steinway? I love a good sounding Steinway. It's probably my favorite. I had no preconceived inclinations when starting to look for pianos, in fact, I wanted to like a different piano but find just one note on a good sounding Steinway is magical. That being said, I've also played many less than stellar sounding Steinways:

A number of rebuilt vintage Steinways all at one dealer that sound somewhat metallic. Was it the way they were rebuilt? Is this the sound of a vintage rebuilt Steinway? Was it the acoustics of the room they were in? Was it the voicing?

A rebuilt Steinway that sounded "unbalanced". Nice strong voice and the notes sound great individually, but when you play a piece of music the bass overpowers the treble and that magical Steinway sound I'm looking for wasn't there, either. This was a private sale. Woulda been a bargain, but I passed.

New Steinways not well prepped with weak treble...

A few great sounding rebuilt Steinways with that magical tonal quality but also with action quirks

A rebuilt Steinway with great tone but tons of ringing (cyphers?)going on (not "after ring" - this happend while notes were depressed). This one was already voice about as mellow as you could get.

And then, of course, the magical sounding new Steinways that were WELL PREPPED. Actually, the one I really loved was used - 4 years old!

Uh, oh! I'm running on! I'll stop now.

I hope to hear a little more about these pianos on this thread.

Jeanne

Jeanne,

If you want to be able to see Kawais and Estonias as well as an ample number of rebuilt Steinways - all in one location, it would be worth your while to visit Piano Row in NYC (which runs between Seventh Avenue and Broadway on West 58th Street). The rebuilt Steinways (in three of the shops) aren't likley to have the types of problems that you mentioned. The Estonias and Kawais should be fairly easy to compare since the Estonia and Kawai dealers are side-by-side.

Note: The Kawai dealer is just in the process of opening so you might have to wait a few weeks before you can actually try some Kawais – so be sure to call ahead. And yes, I’m associated with one of the piano shops so you might consider this to be a bit of a promotion. That is not my intention at all. You are more than welcome to visit our showroom even if it's just to try out the Estonias before perhaps buying one somewhere else.

Irving
Faust Harrison Pianos
We sell new and rebuilt Mason & Hamlins, new Estonias and rebuilt Steinways

Hello Irving. Who is the Kawai dealer? Is Beethoven taking the line, I know they have lots of used Kawai verticals.

Thanks

Hello Chris,

No, Beethoven is not the new Kawai dealer. A new piano store is opening on the block - right next door to us. I don't know for certain any of the particulars, but I've been told (by reliable sources) that Kawai will be featured. As far as I know, no dealer presently on the block is involved in the new store. Faust Harrison is certainly not involved.

Irving
Faust Harrison Pianos
We sell new and rebuilt Mason & Hamlins, new Estonias and rebuilt Steinways

Cool! I have always wondered why there was no Kawai dealer in NYC. It's such a big piano market that any piano maker who is somebody has to have a presence in NYC. Thanks, Irving, for sharing the news of a new piano store opening on the Piano Row.

There are Boston dealers.

New York style sushi, at American steak price

Jeanne W,

It's been twelve months since I compared Kawais and Estonia so the recollections are quite vaque.

I had gone to the Kawai dealer to check out the Kawais. (Earlier that day I had visited a dealer with Petrof, Foerster, Bechstein, and Baldwin, plus a dealer with Kohler & Campbell Millenium.)

First my opinion of the Kawais: The RX 1 (I've had prior experience with one) played decently, but the RX 2 was better. The RX 3 didn't strike me as being any better than the RX 2. Even the RX 6 wasn't that much more impressive than the RX 2. (I had the same experience at another dealer with an RX 2 and an RX 6.)

At that dealer I preferred the Estonia 190 to the Kawais, a rebuilt Mason and Hamlin A, and the Estonia 168.

When I returned to the dealer a few weeks late hoping to buy the Estonia 190 I spent time with it and the Shigeru Kawai SK 3. I thought that the SK 3 was a bit louder, but the basic tone quality of the Estonia 190 was more beautiful. I can't say that I recall any difference in the sustain, though. The action on the SK 3 felt a bit springy (not as much as a Weber WSG 57) whereas the Estonia's action felt as if it were all weight. That's about all I remember.

I compare my Estonia 190 with Steinway B regularly. I have a Steinway B (1972) in my office, plus there is one in our rehearsal room (also 1972). The Steinways got new hammers, shanks, strings, tuning pins, and agraffes from the Steinway dealer three years ago. The technician who worked for the dealer then is my technician as well. From time to time I play a Steinway B at a church which bought it new about two years ago. That was prepped by my technician. All of the Steinways are still serviced by my technician.

The action in the old Steinways seems rather crude. The action in the new one is lighter and more responsive. It does occasionally feel as if there is a glitch here and there, something I don't feel on my Estonia, or a 1989 Yamaha C3 at work.

The tone of the Steinways, old and new, seems less refined. Also, the sustain is a little shorter in the treble.

We also have a 1965 Steinway B in another rehearsal room. To my ear, this really has the classic "boxy" (my term) Steinway sound. It has always been a favorite.

If it is an issue, I find no problem with getting volume out of the Estonia.

I'll be curious to hear your comparisons.

MarkS,

I personally like Estonia pianos. But your comparisons in regard to the Kawai are biased or intentionally wrong, more than objective.

If you can’t tell the difference in tonal quality between a RX-2 and RX-6, I’ll be hesitant to take any of your opinions seriously. The difference in between the two pianos is extremely noticeable.

Again, your action comparison is also more than just an opinion, Kawai actions are very responsive and they don’t feel springy especially on a Shigeru Kawai. If there is a complaint about Kawai’s actions, is that they are a bit heavy for certain people.

People come here for advice and not for bunch of BS. They get enough of that at the dealer.
That by the way you sound like a Estonia dealer

(good pianos deserve quality salespeople)