Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
57 registered members (Animisha, AprilE, accordeur, Coda9, Abdol, ADWyatt, amyram, camperbc, 17 invisible), 911 guests, and 428 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid #2512088 02/18/16 10:52 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 35
V
valerykx Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 35
First samples are here – http://www.pianoid.com/sample.html
We hope it will be finally able to end use of piano samplers at least in classical musical education.
What do you think?

(ad) SWEETWATER Lowest Prices
Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512094 02/18/16 11:10 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 160
A
alerique Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 160
Just in my opinion, this one just as well as all the others while allowing a superior response to the player's actions as compared to the sampled pianos, still have an unpleasant synthetic aftertaste. I just can't shake this feeling off when listening to e.g. Pianoteq. It's good for many things, many people would prefer it to a sampled piano but I can't really say it is superior in every aspect.

Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512096 02/18/16 11:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 35
V
valerykx Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 35
Sorry to hear you, it seems to me that the sound indistinguishable from the live piano.

Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512151 02/18/16 02:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,164
S
sullivang Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,164
The overall sound sounds rather restricted in frequency range. I know that the note range is limited, but the frequency range also sounds very restricted, both in low and high frequencies. However, it does sound promising. The attacks seem to have something that Pianoteq is missing.

Greg.

Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512174 02/18/16 03:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 136
M
Maartin Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 136
Would be better able to judge it without all the reverb that's been added.

Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512183 02/18/16 04:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,161
C
Charles Cohen Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,161
Originally Posted by valerykx
Sorry to hear you, it seems to me that the sound indistinguishable from the live piano.


Valery --

Is it possible that you are biased?

. . . Have you been involved in the development or marketing of Pianoid?

From _which_ "live piano" is the sound indistinguishable --

. . . a Steinway 6' grand ?
. . . a Bechstein 6' grand ?
. . . a Yamaha 7' grand ?
. . . a Bluthner ?

Each of these pianos has its own sound:

. . . Which one does Pianoid match ?



. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512185 02/18/16 04:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 35
V
valerykx Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 35
Charles Cohen You're right. I am involved in the development and marketing of Pianoid – Pianoid is a startup project.
Pianoid is a physical model of a GP. Our approach is that we use precise model with huge calculating power. We use difference scheme to solve differential equations of strings, and we use modal approach to sounding board. As a result we get correct behavior of our model. The parameters we upload to Pianoid are: strings tension, stiffness, mass and length, bridge position, sounding board modes, their shapes, frequencies and Q factors etc. These data obtained through measurements of a real GP. The resulting sound quality is dependent on measurement accuracy.
Give us a time and we will do model of
a Steinway 6' grand
a Bechstein 6' grand
a Yamaha 7' grand
a Bluthner
I hope so!

Last edited by valerykx; 02/18/16 04:22 PM.
Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512191 02/18/16 04:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 94
M
Mr Zaxels Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 94
The best way I can find to describe this is "It sounds like you're hearing someone play the piano through an old telephone".

Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512194 02/18/16 04:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 621
S
slobajudge Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 621
Nice, there is something in sound that promising, so I am very impatient for your pianoid. How long to wait for version 1 ?

Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: Mr Zaxels] #2512217 02/18/16 05:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
P
prout Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Originally Posted by Mr Zaxels
The best way I can find to describe this is "It sounds like you're hearing someone play the piano through an old telephone".


Funny, that is exactly what I think whenever I am forced to listen to music on YouTube, because people don't care enough to upload lossless audio in place of YouTube.



Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512263 02/18/16 07:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,788
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,788
valerykx, interesting development - thank you for posting.

May I ask what platform this software will eventually run on, and what kind of spec would be required for full 88-key modelling?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512268 02/18/16 08:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 306
B
bnolsen Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 306
Interesting you aren't just using something like an rpiZero or rpi2 for this project. If you want cheap and programmable, that's where it's at...and today they released a fix that dramatically improves onboard audio playback.

Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: bnolsen] #2512282 02/18/16 08:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,161
C
Charles Cohen Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,161
Originally Posted by bnolsen
Interesting you aren't just using something like an rpiZero or rpi2 for this project. If you want cheap and programmable, that's where it's at...and today they released a fix that dramatically improves onboard audio playback.


PMFJI --

Pianoteq runs OK on an Intel i5 chip, but is marginal on anything slower.

The Raspberry Pi doesn't have nearly enough horsepower to do this kind of real-time computing.



. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512313 02/18/16 10:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 365
M
Marcos Daniel Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 365
Is this product the same that appeared a some years ago?


Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512366 02/19/16 03:15 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 100
P
Paolo70 Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 100
Hi Valery,

Thank you for sharing the samples.

I think that evaluation would be more productive if you could find a way to record the sound with higher quality. Honestly the samples sound like they were recorded on a C-60 cassette, hiss noise included (I'm sure many of you youngsters won't even understand what that means :D)!

Did you perhaps record the sound as diffused by loudspeakers? In that case, by all means find a way to record the direct digital output of your FPGA model.

Regarding the sound itself, the only thing I will say from what I could hear is that you might want to check whether your sustain is not shortened too much from excessive damping. That's most likely only a model parameters question though, so it should be easy to get a longer sustain. Ah, let me add that I also had the impression that when exercising dynamics there was a kind of 'two level quantization' of the spectral signature, which is exactly what I wouldn't expect from a modeled piano.

I see where you are going, and encourage you to go ahead, but there's a lot of work to be done to compete HW digitals and, most importantly, with Pianoteq.

Keep up the good work!
Paolo


Yamaha CLP-970
Roland JV-1080
Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512371 02/19/16 03:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 35
V
valerykx Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 35
Kawai James Pianoid will be a non-expensive chip (about $30) with few SPI inputs for uploading coefficients and inputting MIDI events, and output for audio. This chip will not be programmable, it could solve only one task – calculate GP behavior. So it does not need any software platform. In final implementation, this chip can be integrated in existing devises, with their own operation system, or as standalone devise with FLASH (for keeping presets), WIFI (for downloading presets and making custom presets through website), MIDI input and audio output. In this case devise can use cheap microcontroller with small and light operation system like linux.

At a present time we use FPGA Xilinx xc7vx690t. It is very powerful programmable chip for ASIC prototyping. The full 88-keys version does not fit in this chip, so we need bigger FPGA. They do exists, but we need to find investors to make prototype and produce ASIC. According to our investigations, there is no problem to produce ASIC with necessary

Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512380 02/19/16 04:37 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,241
Beemer Offline
Bronze Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
Bronze Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,241
Valerykx,

Why have your posted a wav file that is digitally over-driven? There are many times during the performance where the clipping distortion occurs. See Greza-3.wav (Sweet Dreams)

Apart from that the recording is muffled and dare I say a little like a "revived" recording from an early 78rpm record. It is not a good advert for the technology.

Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512385 02/19/16 05:03 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 23
O
Orco Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by valerykx
Kawai James Pianoid will be a non-expensive chip (about $30) with few SPI inputs for uploading coefficients and inputting MIDI events, and output for audio. This chip will not be programmable, it could solve only one task – calculate GP behavior. So it does not need any software platform. In final implementation, this chip can be integrated in existing devises, with their own operation system, or as standalone devise with FLASH (for keeping presets), WIFI (for downloading presets and making custom presets through website), MIDI input and audio output. In this case devise can use cheap microcontroller with small and light operation system like linux.

At a present time we use FPGA Xilinx xc7vx690t. It is very powerful programmable chip for ASIC prototyping. The full 88-keys version does not fit in this chip, so we need bigger FPGA. They do exists, but we need to find investors to make prototype and produce ASIC. According to our investigations, there is no problem to produce ASIC with necessary

This is a really cool project. Hope it goes well for you.
Myself, I work with ASIC development smile

How many are you working on this?

Last edited by Orco; 02/19/16 05:05 AM.
Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512396 02/19/16 06:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 35
V
valerykx Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 35
Orco thank you very mutch. We are working 10 years

Re: New physmod of a Grand Piano – Pianoid [Re: valerykx] #2512412 02/19/16 07:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 35
V
valerykx Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 35
Marcos Daniel, yes the same

Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Moderated by  Piano World 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Size of notation on the page
by Nikolas - 12/08/19 12:27 AM
1ms audio, can you tell the difference?
by Abdol - 12/07/19 10:18 PM
Looking for Chappell 1886 upright information
by steven_usa - 12/07/19 10:16 PM
Recommend me a hygrometer and humidifier
by WeakLeftHand - 12/07/19 09:46 PM
Near Field Monitors With 8 Inch Drivers ?
by AndyOnThePiano - 12/07/19 09:22 PM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics195,560
Posts2,899,533
Members95,178
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3