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Page 53 of 53 1 2 51 52 53
Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman] #2507140
02/04/16 09:50 AM
02/04/16 09:50 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,422
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Very interesting, GP! Glad you went looking through the vault! To my ears, changing the keys by the half-steps does change the "character" of the piece a lot, but all three are easy to enjoy. It is very much a "mood" thing. In my opinion, the transpositions change the "mood" considerably!

I can add some more grist to the "remote keys" mill. I recorded this two days ago right after tuning the Lester. It is a beautiful arrangement by Don Wyrtzen of, "When Love Is Found (O Waly Waly)." It starts in the key of Ab maj., modulates to the key of Db maj., then modulates back to the key of Ab maj.

A note about the tuning: I used the SAT III with Bill's EBVT III settings for the custom tuning he did for the Lester. But the wound tri-chords from D#3 to G#3 were not cooperating all that well. Sometimes I can get them to calm down and not sound so nasal, but not this time. Probably would have helped if those tri-chords weren't featured so prominently in this piece! crazy

I used some really cheap, non-powered microphones (Sony F-25) to record this with my Tascam portable digital recorder. The mics were very hissy, so I ran the recording through DC8, a noise-reduction program. Still, you can get the sense of the tuning and the key modulations. The beautiful chord voicings by Don Wyrtzen really captured my imagination!

"Where Love Is Found (O Waly Waly)" -- Don Wytrzen, arr.

--Andy


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
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Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2507217
02/04/16 01:55 PM
02/04/16 01:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Grandpianoman Offline OP
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Hi Andy,

Yes, def agree...the more I listen to all 3, I am favoring the whole step file..love the lower notes and the richness it brings to the piece.

One thing I have always noticed with EBVT III, when there are a lot of low notes going on at once, one can hear more clearly, the harmony. Not sure why that is.

Nice selection and playing! Sounds very good! Thanks for posting that.

It's amazing how many different temperaments are out there, and how different they make the piano sound.

Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman] #2507488
02/05/16 08:29 AM
02/05/16 08:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,014
Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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GP,

See if you can find Beethoven Sonata #21 (Waldstein) Somewhere to play on the RBB in the EBVT III. You'll hear that clarity in the low voiced chords. It is a piece open to a very wide area of expression which many pianists gloss over. It is written in the key of C Major. It really does need a mild Well Temperament to sound right. ET muddies those low voiced chords. I believe it to be the reason why so many pianists just play the notes and don't really feel what is there to be expressed.

Of course, if you do find an example recorded for the LX, it will have been performed by an artist playing it in ET, so you can't expect it to really sound the way it should. I am actually working on it myself but it is a long, slow process to learn to play such a gargantuan piece! It is my favorite of all the sonatas that Beethoven wrote.

The reason, by the way for the clarity, is the width of the Major thirds. In C Major, the Major third is narrowest in any Well Temperament. It is about 1/2 as wide in the EBVT III as it would be in ET.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman] #2507562
02/05/16 12:00 PM
02/05/16 12:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,651
Delaware (slower/lower)
Ralph Offline
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I love listening to that Lester when Andy is at the wheel. Beautiful!
There most certainly is space between those lower notes. Almost like there is more room for the strings to vibrate without hitting each other. I know that sounds a little stupid, but that's the impression I get.


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Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Ralph] #2507591
02/05/16 01:38 PM
02/05/16 01:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,422
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Thanks, Ralph! It sure is a fun piano to play! I think in the pages of this thread, we've answered the question about EBVT III being more than serviceable in any key. grin

What I am wondering now is about GP's Debussy experiment. This comes from my over-active, uninformed imagination, and the question of, historically, where has the "A" been set? GP's Debussy experiment steps down by half and whole, with a demonstrable change in the way the piece comes across. I don't know how to describe it very well, except to say that the mood changes. In the pages of this thread, we have discussed how Well Temperaments like EBVT III bring a heightened "emotional color" to compositions by the way in which the temperament affects consonances and dissonances, and the notion that composers presumably wrote in certain keys because of the emotional (or at least "artistic") effect of a certain key.

Once, when Bill tuned the Lester in winter, he floated the pitch flat to something like A438 or A436 (don't remember exactly), and the effect of it was that stuff that I was used to hearing at A440 sounded somehow more relaxed. It was a perceptible change, but not so much a change of "character," exactly. Same with a tuning in summer, where he floated the pitch sharp to A443--a definite percptible change, to the "sweet" side, but also a little more "tense" in places, but not a total change of "character." Now, when I tune the Lester, I keep it at A440, because I tune it often enough to keep it there, and I like it there. But with GP's experiment, with the Debussy etude down a whole step...

I am somewhat flummoxed, based on how much a half and whole step transposition effected the "emotional color" of this Debussy piece. It's like passing an auditory thermocline, or something... I'm not really questioning whether or not a composer would choose to write in any given key because of the effect of it--I mean, gosh, why would anybody write in B maj., except for the brilliance? Or Db because of the sonority? But now I am wondering what would B maj. sound like at A420? And then I wonder, "At what frequency of 'A,' was this composed?" I especially wonder about this regarding a composer like Debussy (and Ravel, for that matter, and Scriabin, and...), who, if I am understanding correctly, very much intended certain effects to come forth in performance, and was very careful about how he noted pedaling and note duration values.

I'm not a "rule-bound" stickler for tradition when it comes to the religion of the sanctity of the score wink , but I do always wonder about margins, definitions, and what to do with my imaginary dialogues with composers when I dive into a score and engage in the "collaborative endeavor" that is sometimes called "interpretation." grin I suppose now I just have more to wonder about.

Abiding by the rule, "If it sounds good, it's good,"
--Andy

Last edited by Cinnamonbear; 02/05/16 01:45 PM. Reason: added a thought

I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #2507600
02/05/16 01:56 PM
02/05/16 01:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Grandpianoman Offline OP
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Portland, Oregon
Hi Bill,

Will do!

I seemed to have never posted this piece either. This was recorded at the same time as the Debussy above. Wonderful colors etc, and at about 1:41, some wonderfully rich sounds. Also a Yamaha E-Competition file.

Albeniz--Rondena from Iberia-- in EBVT III Yamaha E-Competition files

https://app.box.com/s/3y6cpgqk2fpwpxaesldzmgtexmyo1s1s

Interesting take Andy on the 3 Debussy files. I once saw a YouTube video where in an Earl Wild master class, he commented on how he prefers some of the piano rep to be played 1/2 step lower! His reasoning for that was that "A" was probably lower than it is today!


Last edited by Grandpianoman; 02/05/16 03:07 PM. Reason: added content
Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2507723
02/05/16 08:19 PM
02/05/16 08:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
I don't know how to describe it very well, except to say that the mood changes.

Three different things:

Transposing - regardless if it's piano in any temperament, or voice, strings, etc. - is to change the key of an original composition. IMHO, I always felt that it kills the composition's original mood. One famous example is Schubert's Impromptu 899-3 published by Haslinger in G instead of Gb. When I was director for different musical projects, I always refused to transpose pieces, be it classical or pop. If a singer has to transpose, we'll simply not do it and find other pieces. Only exception was a female singer performing a piece an octave higher (originally written for a male singer ) - that was interesting and respected the original key.

Varying the pitch on a string instrument affects its timbre to a certain extent. For example, a violinist can tune his/her instrument sharper (scordatura) to simplify playing, but it will also add more brilliance. The effect with piano strings is similar if you tune the instrument a few cents flat or sharp to accommodate (float).

Finally, playing the same piano piece without transposing it but using different UTs might create different musical moods. Also, if you want to compare the different moods in a given UT and still play the piece in its original key, you can simply retune the temperament moving the reference (for example, if C is the less tempered key and F# the most as in EBVT III, you could tune it moving the reference key by a tritone - then F# becomes the less tempered key and vice versa). Easier/quicker with a digital piano though. smile

Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bosendorff] #2507757
02/05/16 11:42 PM
02/05/16 11:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 196
Netherlands
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Netherlands
I was wondering if mood changes due to transposing a piece to another key are created by the (non ET) temperament or just by the changed pitch itself. The more somebody's has a perfect pitch the more a change of key will change the perception of the music.

Secondly, when the iH of those keys are different it becomes even more complicated to relate mood changes to the temperament only, because a change in iH also effects the beats.

Therefore I think that the effect of a temperament on a key change should be tested by retuning the piano. In that way the same strings will be used when the piece is performed.

Last edited by HansC2; 02/05/16 11:43 PM.
Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bosendorff] #2507897
02/06/16 11:38 AM
02/06/16 11:38 AM
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Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted by Bosendorff

Varying the pitch on a string instrument affects its timbre to a certain extent. For example, a violinist can tune his/her instrument sharper (scordatura) to simplify playing, but it will also add more brilliance. The effect with piano strings is similar if you tune the instrument a few cents flat or sharp to accommodate (float).


Once, a young woman wanted me to tune her Yamaha Studio piano 1/2 step low and in 1/4 Comma Meantone because she played Baroque music. It completely changed the character of sound from the instrument. It no longer sounded like a modern piano.

Indeed, on the rare occasion that some old piano must be tuned 1/2 step low, it gives the piano a low, throaty character. Not something I would ever want to play. When I come to a piano that is severely low in pitch such as a half step or beyond, the customer is delighted with the sound when the piano is fully up to pitch.

Recently, I restrung a Steinway Model L. All strings were installed at 1/2 step low but by the time the restringing was completed, they had all drifted even lower in pitch, about a full step low. Out of curiosity, I played the piano a bit the way it was. The low pitch made it sound very "old". As I got the piano closer to pitch, it continued to sound like an old piano until it was finally fully up to pitch and beyond, where I placed it at A-442 in order to settle in. It then sounded like a very bright, modern piano.

Not long ago, I tuned a piano for a woman who played fiddle in a Cajun band. She told me that Cajun fiddlers often tune the fiddle a full step low so that they can play more easily with the typical Diatonic Accordion which is often in the key of C or G and with pure Major thirds. I asked her if that did not radically change the tone of the fiddle. She answered, "Yes but that is the way they are used to it."

I looked up this old recording on You Tube of the Mardi Gras Song and sure enough, the song is in A minor but the pitch is a full step low.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHbaqtGUj5c


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman] #2507920
02/06/16 12:22 PM
02/06/16 12:22 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,014
Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Incidentally, I looked up this scene from an HBO film called Southern Comfort (1981). It is totally fiction but really scary. Some Louisiana National Guard troops went on a training mission in the Atchafalaya Basin (very swampy). They had no ammunition except for blanks (except one soldier thought to bring along a clip of live bullets just in case).

They got lost and borrowed some canoes they had found. The owners showed up. The soldiers tried to tell them they would bring the canoes back but apparently they did not understand English. One of the soldiers foolishly fired his blanks at the men who dove into the bushes, thinking they were being shot at. Those men were wary of strangers and had powerful hunting rifles.

It started a long chase and all but three of the soldiers were killed. They finally made it to a Cajun hideaway where there was a large gathering for a community dance and hog butchering called "La Boucherie".

The film was disturbing to many of the people who live in that part of the country. They felt it gave a very false impression of the way they lived. Some of the depictions are accurate but more like things would have been 100 years ago, not 35 years ago. The accents were not authentic (but who would know that except people from there).

The music, however is very authentic. The particular song that was chosen for the scene is quite authentic but not a typical Cajun song. It is once again in the key of A minor while most Cajun songs are in C or G major.

The choices that the director made were intended to create an other world effect. No one speaks or only barely speaks English. The music is unlike any that is ever heard anywhere else. Dewey Balfa is the fiddler and singer. Marc Savoie (a master of the Diatonic Accordion) is the accordionist. A guitar (Marc Balfa) provides constant rhythm and harmony. Notice that the only percussion is a triangle (called Le P'tit Fer) (little iron) and is made from a tine of a plow). There is no Bass drum because the stomping of boots on a wooden floor provides for that.

The music is indeed a local phenomenon. In the 1960's, few people outside the area had ever heard it but when the Balfa Brothers brought their music to the Folk Music Festival in Newport Rhode Island, the crowds raved about the unique sound from a part of the USA that is unique in its cultural traditions.

Once again, you hear the fiddle tuned a full step low. It gives the instrument quite a different character. It is played in such a different manner from the way a violin is usually played that it sounds as if it came from some other part of the world. The language is French but it is a dialect far removed from that spoken anywhere else in the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMzysRahEXs


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman] #2508022
02/06/16 05:42 PM
02/06/16 05:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,651
Delaware (slower/lower)
Ralph Offline
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Amazing how life can make a full circle. I remember that movie very well, like I saw it yesterday. It is one of my all time favorites. Powers Boothe was great. I've often thought of that movie through the years and always felt haunted by that music. I can't believe you mentioned here Bill. It's just amazing how things come together sometimes.


Do or do not. There is no try.
Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman] #2508275
02/07/16 04:15 PM
02/07/16 04:15 PM
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Madison, WI USA
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Thanks Ralph,

It was getting a little off topic an tangential but I am glad you liked the comment and the video clip. It was the question raised about the effect of both pitch and temperament. I think they both have an effect. When they are combined from the point of view of a modern piano tuned in ET at A-440, the effect is multiplied.

I have long been an aficionado of the Cajun language, culture and music. After having lived in France for a year when I was in college, I went to Louisiana because I had heard that a dialect of French was still spoken there. It is mostly spoken in small towns and villages. The Balfa Brothers were from Mamou, Louisiana, about 90 miles West by Northwest of New Orleans. The culture and language are a world apart, although some of the Creole culture of New Orleans and Cajun culture of Southwest Louisiana have blended.

When I first went there, I found the music to be strange, out of tune and with strident intervals. I could barely understand the French. I kept with it, however and learned to speak it and belong to a Facebook group that works to preserve and spread the knowledge of the language, music and cuisine.

It just happens to be Mardi Gras time, so this is the time of year to take notice of that culture. The effects of the pitch, note bending, accordion with a strident sound but pure Major thirds and a strange dialect of French spoken by a limited number of people is all there.

Here is a transcription of the song that Dewey Balfa plays and sings:

Parlez-nous à Boire
Talk to us about Drinking

Vas parler nous à boire, non pas de marriage,
Talk to us about drinking, not marriage
toujours en regrettant nos jolis temps passés.
Always regretting the good old times
Si, que tu te maries avec une jolie fille,
If you marry a pretty girl,
T'es dans les grands dangers, qu'on va te la voler.
You're in great danger of someone stealing her away.

Parle-moi mon grand bon-à-rien,
Talk to me my good-for-nothing,
t'as tout gaspiller mon bien.
You wasted everything good that I had.
Parle-moi mon grand bon-à-rien,
Talk to me my good-for-nothing,
t'as tout gaspiller mon bien.
You wasted everything good that I had.
Si, que tu te maries avec une villaine fille,
If you marry an ugly girl,
T'es dans les grands dangers, faut faire ta vie avec.
You're in great danger of having to make a life with her

Vas parler nous à boire, non pas de marriage,
Talk to us about drinking, not marriage
toujours en regrettant nos jolis temps passés.
Always regretting the good old times
Si, que tu te maries avec une fille bien pauvre,
If you marry a really poor girl,
T'es dans les grands dangers, faut ouvrager tout ta vie.
You're in great danger of having to work hard all your life.

Parle-moi mon grand bon-à-rien,
Talk to me my good-for-nothing,
t'as tout gaspiller mon bien.
You wasted everything good that I had.
Parle-moi mon grand bon-à-rien,
Talk to me my good-for-nothing,
t'as tout gaspiller mon bien.
You wasted everything good that I had.
Si, que tu te maries avec une fille de quoi,
If you marry a girl who has something,
T'es dans les grands dangers, tu vas trapper de grands reproches.
You're in great danger of receiving great criticism for it.

*************************************************************

If you continue letting You Tube role, you will hear some other great examples of down home, Cajun music. I like this one in particular that has Dewey Balfa playing and singing, "J'étais au Bal" (I was at the Dance) with his son playing "fiddlesticks" on the fiddle, turning it into a virtual dulcimer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFyOGqmITjM&list=PLmx2zOwJT_tTvf62k-jr-_MsOeS9NM_4d



Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman] #2508342
02/07/16 09:36 PM
02/07/16 09:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,651
Delaware (slower/lower)
Ralph Offline
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Delaware (slower/lower)
Im originally from Brazil, although many many years ago. I'm amazed at how similar country music from different countries can be. There is a similarity in rhythm and harmony. Here's a quick example that took me 30 seconds to find. I could find many better examples, but this one will due. There's a similarity that cannot be ignored, but I don't know why.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lPPLWZ9BM7U

There are plenty more examples of Brazilian country music better than this one. I have recordings that, except for the language you would swear was Cajun.


Do or do not. There is no try.
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