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Weiyan Offline OP
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Using EBVT III for years, but unfortunately still not understand the equal beating. For example, which interval to which interval beat equally? Its significancy?


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
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F3A3 is tuned to beat at 6 bps.

C4E4 is also tuned at 6 bps.

G3E4 is also tuned at 6 bps.

G3B3 is also tuned at 6 bps.

These intervals are all equal beating.

Then D4 is tuned so G3D4 beats exactly the same than A3D4, i.e. equal beating.

D#4 is tuned so G#3D#4 beats exactly the same than A#3D#4, equal beating.

Then E4 is retuned so A3E4 beats exactly the same than B3E4: equal beating.

And finally F#3 is retuned so F#3B3 beats exactly the same than F#3C#4: equal beating.


Last edited by Gadzar; 01/27/16 09:51 PM.
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EBVT III is a Well Temperament with easy (possible) tuning steps.

If you have tuned other WTs then you know they have not easy to follow tuning instructions.

In EBVT III you only have to tune pure intervals or equal beating intervals. The only and unique estimation is the initial F3A3 M3 beating at 6 bps. All the remaining notes are tuned to produce pure intervals or equal beating intervals.

This is really wonderful, isn't it?


Last edited by Gadzar; 01/27/16 10:00 PM.
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Make sure when you tune the octaves that you make the 4th and 5th beat the same. The amount of beating will change depending on what key you are in. This isn't ET, so the octaves will change. Not sure if you are doing it by ear or with an ETD. An ETD will try to make the octaves the same and they shouldn't be. This is all I ever tune. I have only tuned ET once since my tuning exam and it was because it was requested.

Last edited by Lucas Brookins RPT; 01/28/16 12:10 AM.

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Weiyan, thank you for your interest. "Equal Beating" is actually a method for tuning a temperament. There are many possibilities. Owen Jorgensen wrote a small book called the "Handbook of Equal Beating Temperaments..." In this book, there were many kinds of non-equal temperaments and even one which was close to ET.

What is different about these temperament sequences is that there is never any estimation of beat rates or guessing of any kind. An interval is either tuned pure (no beats) or is tuned so that it beats exactly alike with another. Often, two intervals are temporarily tuned pure then when compared to a common note, a strongly dissonant interval is heard as a result. That note is then moved so it beats equally between the other two, forming an acceptable compromise. One never "counts" the beats. One only listens for the same quality of sound between the two.

When I needed a mild Well Temperament (also known as "Victorian"), I used the ideas in that book to eventually come up with what is today known as the EBVT III. The fact that it was a third adaptation of an idea is a clue to how difficult it was for me to finalize an idea that I had in my mind for a long time. When I finally did arrive at the final solution, it seemed so simple that I wondered why I had not realized it all long before.

Many people helped me including Owen Jorgensen and Ron Koval from this forum. Owen Jorgensen found upon the finalized idea that it was remarkably similar to a concept of a mild Well Temperament that Johann Georg Neidhardt had nearly 300 years before I did. Neidhardt however, had never devised a sequence for executing it.

The idea was for a mild Well Temperament. There are many similar to it and many even milder. Jim Coleman, Sr. and Ron Koval are known for their own ideas and there are others. However, most, if not all of these can only be tuned electronically.

When I first needed to use a mild Well Temperament, however I was strictly an aural tuner and there were no published sequences that did not require a lot of guessing. In other words, I could never know when I had tuned the temperament correctly and I may have had different results each time.

I wanted a sequence that first of all, I could replicate reasonably well each time and if anyone else were interested, that person could get the same results I would get, each time, every time. An Equal Beating method was the solution to that problem.

That being said, what I also found was that there is an effect in Equal Beating which tends to make the piano sound more harmonious or "in tune" with itself. If you read the topic about how "A piano cannot be tuned" (in which I just commented), you will find comments that I made about the problems of inharmonicity.

While there have been others who have made the same kind of discovery, on my own, I discovered ways to make intervals that were slightly tempered (4ths, 5ths and octaves) all have the same amount of tempering. These slight beats have the effect of "masking" each other (as I recall one individual describe it.) In other words, the slightly out of tune sound which cannot be overcome, is somehow hidden.

This effectively causes the piano to have a "cleaner", more in-tune sound when actual music is played upon it. Some years after designing the EBVT, I looked for a way to tune ET by an Equal Beating method. It was named, the "ET via Marpurg". It was an adaptation of one of the temperaments found in Owen Jorgensen's handbook. Using this method, the tuner would not have to guess so much. Again, an interval is tuned either beatless or is caused to beat exactly alike with another. Through the same kind of process as these earlier temperaments, one can arrive at a temperament which for all intents and purposes, is ET.

While the final result is technically a Quasi Equal Temperament ("quasi" means almost) but it is so close to theoretical ET that if the temperament is executed properly, it will pass the PTG Tuning Exam "Temperament" portion with a score of 100%.

Therefore, I began tutoring students who had attempted but failed the tuning exam and students who had previously only tuned electronically to use the idea. They found the sequence idea to actually work for them and therefore many of those people used it to take and pass the tuning exam. Lucas Brookins is one of the many who used it and got a 100% score. He does not even know of any other way to tune ET than what I taught him.

(By the way, I did not try to persuade Lucas Brookins to adopt the sole use of the EBVT III as his usual temperament. He had learned tuning initially on his own by using the free trial version of Tunelab software. He was mildly interested in aural tuning at the time. He asked me which would be easier to learn, EBVT III or ET. I answered, EBVT III, so he went for that.

He got it amazingly quickly! But when it came time to prepare for the PTG Tuning Exam, I offered him two versions: the "Up a 3rd, up a 3rd, down a 5th" idea and the ET via Marpurg. He found the true, theoretically correct version of ET to be "too much information" (as they say) at the time. Too many checks and balances for what he knew and could cope with at the time. The ET via Marpurg offered a simpler solution.

He also found, as the fine pianist that he is, that the EBVT III appealed to him more as a musician than ET did. It was and has been his choice ever since. It made more sense to him than ET does for a practical arrangement of how the piano should be tuned.

The piano is limited in its capabilities of being tuned. That is for sure and completely understood. But for the compromise to be made completely equally as the best and final solution is another question to be pondered and challenged. Should not the Key Signature play a role? That is what the EBVT III, among other characteristics offers: a clear and distinct difference in all 24 Major and minor keys.)

Just as with the EBVT, I found that using the Equal Beating method to tune ET resulted in once again, a more harmonious and "in tune" sounding piano than if I used a theoretically correct method for ET and used other options for stretching the octaves. 4ths, 5ths, octaves and all of their multiples all have the same, slightly tempered sound. It is the only way I ever try to tune ET.

Here is some music captured with a cell phone at a concert where the piano was tuned in the ET via Marpurg. I can clearly hear the effect of the Equally Tempered intervals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78_uTlOAnUs

Last edited by Bill Bremmer RPT; 01/28/16 09:01 PM. Reason: added comments

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I have tried to tune the EBVT III a few times aurally and also with the verituner (but in this case I think it's better tuning it by ear, because it is really easy to do).
My question is about the fifth g3-d4: it is always a bit too tempered for my ears. It disturbs me, when playing in G major. As a consequence of this tempered fifth, all the other g-d fifths are for me a little out of tune. Can the so called beat cancelling effect solve this problem?
I followed the tuning instructions very carefully and often rechecked all the tuned intervals. There is a mistake somewhere.
I also had a look at the graphic of Jason Kantor. This fifth beats 1.4 times per second. From my experiences with tuning UT I know that this 1.4 bps are in my ears quite "on the edge".
I also did some experiments with musicians: I played the fifth f3-c4 and to compare the fifth g3-d4 (in EBVT III, of course). Most answer: two normal fifths.

I normally tune UT, from Koval 1.3 till Peter Serkin's favorite temperament.
Although the EBVT III is a hair sweeter than the Serkin's, the fifth g3-d4 makes me not really happy.
I ask for help because I can hear the beauty of the Bill's EBVT III.

Thanks very much.

Extra question:
Can the beat cancelling effect be brought to the top treble and down to the lowest bass?

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The Tuner,

You can always raise D4 until it sounds better but of course that will make the A3-D4 4th beat more rapidly and you may have a real problem with the subsequent D4-A4 5th.

Remember this: an open 5th in that range would rarely occur in real music. A 1/4 Comma Meantone 5th would be even more tempered. Yet, when you play those chords with the pure 3rd, the tempered 5th gets swallowed.

I get this kind of question every so often. Tuners "banging" on 5ths that they don't like. Play a G Major chord: G3-B3-D4. Is it really all that bad? None of my customers ever complain about it. Neither do any professional artists. The beat cancelling effect may actually hide any problem that you perceive when listening to isolated intervals.

Answer to extra question: Most definitely YES!

Last edited by Bill Bremmer RPT; 02/01/16 12:14 AM. Reason: added comment

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Dear Bill

Thank you for your answer and support. When I started tuning UT's , my ears had problems with the more tempered fifths in these temperaments. Today it's all normal and nobody ever complained. They even love their pianos more than before.

I probably ask the question of the fifth g3-d4, because I want to bring out the EBVT III to the customer here around. I tuned it only once on a friend's grand and he was happy, too.
I'm always a little bit careful here: I know, that I am probably the only one here in the region, that tunes pianos in UT temperament. The rest of the piano tuners here likes more ET. So if I like to bring out something new, watch your step. So far so good.

Maybe you misunderstood me: I am not banging on that fifth, I wasn't sure, if I tuned everything right. But by changing d4 the rest of the equal beating will be destroyed, that is clear. So I keep going on training the EBVT III temperament till it is absolutely correct.

There were once some videos in which Lucas tuned the EBVT III while you instructed him. Are they still available somewhere? That was great.

Thanks very much for all the help!!

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Tuner,

I had forgotten that I had done this but I think this is the video you are citing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FohJ-pbCpw

Which country do you live in? I can also instruct in Spanish and French. If you have either Facebook Messenger or Skype and a smart phone, we can connect in a video conference and I can guide you through the temperament sequence and how to tune the octaves. The only problem would to be find a time that works for both of us because the time difference may be 6-8 hours difference.


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Dear Bill
I will send you a PM as soon as I have a little free time.

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Weiyan Offline OP
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Thanks for the inputs.

After roughly viewing the posts, have some thoughts.

I am experiencing various wt, especially Thomas Young EBVTIII. Not seldom have quoting from Owen Jorgensen that Young is preferred. EBVTIII is popular and is nice with machine tuning. Had hacked EBVTIII aural tuning not so success. Young seems easier. Tune C4-E4 3bps, temper fifths above C and tune pure fifth below C. For F3-A3, even in the Bill's continuous thirds, also any interval begins with F3, its difficult to tune. Most pianos here are studio the notes below F3 are seriously compromised. If tune F3->C4 pure, C4 is around 5 cents sharp easier with ET tuner.

Will study the posts here precisely and hack on EBVTIII VS Young this Chinese New Year holiday.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms

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