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Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
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Hello Everyone,
I’m a long time reader of these forums and finally decided to register and join. I have a question regarding a 2000 Estonia L190. I have an opportunity to purchase this piano from a dealer who is not an authorized Estonia dealer. The price their asking is $17,800. I’ve talked to the nearest authorized Estonia Dealer here in Michigan and the sales manager was under the impression that the price was high. He said that in 2000 the selling price for a new Estonia L190 was 14,000 – 16,000. I’ve also read on this the forums that the 2000 Model year was sold new for $15000 and resold “gently used” for 11,000. Although I think the piano has a humidity control system on it does that justify asking 2800 more than what the piano sold for new? I’m Interested to hear if anyone can confirm the list prices for the L190 in 2000 and the opinion on the asking price now.
Thanks,

Last edited by Dre3030; 01/29/16 03:58 PM. Reason: Spelling

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Welcome to Piano World!

I believe that the best Estonia pianos have been produced since 2002. However, that is not to say that a 2000 L190 is not a good piano. The more recent instruments have been acclaimed for their superb quality and maybe the asking price for this particular piano is a reflection of that.
I would do some research on current prices for pre-2002 Estonia pianos.

Good luck!

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I would proceed here as with any other purchase:

1] What other piano would make for good comparison at price of $ 17,800?
How do I "like" this piano in comparison to others near same price range?

2] What's exact condition of this piano? [get independent technicians' appraisal]

3]What's piano's potential to bring to higher level? [see #2 above..]

4] Whats current value of same piano and how is expected value/price retention based on that?

Covering above 4 questions should put you in fairly good position to proceed one way or the other.

Best of luck - if all checks out, you might just be on to a very good deal...

Norbert


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I believe I was shopping for pianos around that time, and an Estonia 190 was a very nice piano back then. However, if you feel that the asking price it too much there's no need for you to pay that much -- offer them less and stick to your guns, you've got the upper hand and they have something that weighs 600 pounds stuck on their premises, LOL.

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Prices are tricky, but if those prices you mentioned are real, you can definitely get a comparable piano for less from a private seller. Of course that would require you have a tech check it out, and that you have someone available to service it for you.

I'm pretty aware of the pricing game right now because I have a 2006 M&H AA, and I'm debating whether I should have my dealer sell it on consignment, or simply list it for 23k or 24K. My dealer would probably get 31k for it and I'd get about 2/3's of that.

I think having him involved, though, makes it worth the higher price he'd sell it for. The buyer would have him standing behind the piano. If you read through this website long enough, you'll find a lot of stories about people finding hidden problems long after purchasing a used piano. You realize pretty quickly that having a great dealer is a big deal, and my dealer is awesome. A buyer would have total peace of mind getting my piano or any other piano from him, and when buying something as pricey as that Estonia or my MH, peace of mind is a big deal!

So, knowing dealers have to charge more than private sellers, I think the first step for you is to figure out if the dealer selling that Estonia is mediocre, ok, or great. Do that even before you decide whether you love the piano or not. If the dealer is great, truly great, then you check out the piano more, and if you love it, you bargain a little and be happy you get to have them standing behind the sale.

Now, if you find that they're just an OK dealer, then I would either look for another dealer or go the private seller route. Sorry if I've ignored your question on whether the price is reasonable. It's just that there are many more nice pianos out there than there are great dealers, and what's a reasonable price has to take the dealer into account. Still, pianos don't generally appreciate in value, so ...



Last edited by Toddler2; 01/29/16 11:01 PM.

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As a comparison, I sold my L190 2008 this past September for 23k

Last edited by Mark...; 01/30/16 11:22 AM.
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Mark, you have me wondering how a 2006 MH AA compares to a 2008 L190 in value. How fast did you piano sell at that price?

Dre, is the piano you're looking at at Faust Harrisons in NY?
They are another fantastic dealer. They rebuilt our family B, now my sister's piano, and it turned out wonderfully.
But, I'm not sure you gain the dealer backing benefit as much if you buy in NYC and live in Michigan.


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Toddler2,
Yes the Piano is at Faust & Harrison... But it's at their Connecticut store. I've been very impressed with Erica Feidner the showroom manager, she has gone out of her way and has been extremely helpful. There's good new and bad news. First the bad news. While I was extremely impressed with the customer service I decided not to purchase the piano. The main reason being I am unable to make the trip to Connecticut and actually play the instrument. I talked to the outside technician who prep the piano (Eric Johnson)... who said that the piano was in tip-top shape. But being able to feel the keys and hear the sound is important to me. And the fact that there would be no warranty due to its age I decided to continue elsewhere with my search.

The good, no great news is... I was able, with the help of the sales manager at Evola music here in Canton Michigan, to purchase a "new" Estonia L190. The deal was done yesterday and I take delivery in 6 days. I've been smiling like a child on Christmas for the past 17 hours.

I want to thank each of you who responded to my inquiry/questions. I will post to a new thread and provide photo's when she arrives.

Andre

Last edited by Dre3030; 01/31/16 02:11 PM. Reason: Spelling

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Originally Posted by Dre3030
[...] I will post to a new thread and provide photo's when she arrives.

Andre


"she" ??


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Originally Posted by Toddler2
Mark, you have me wondering how a 2006 MH AA compares to a 2008 L190 in value. How fast did you piano sell at that price?



It took 4 years. Most people never heard of Estonia so its a tough sell. I was asking 25k and took the 23k offer. Glad that piano is behind me...

Last edited by Mark...; 01/31/16 02:44 PM.
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Beautiful piano though. I expect to miss the AA. I think it's a he though. wink


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Estonia ends with an "a", therefore, it's a she. smile

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Dre3030 Offline OP
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Mark,
Did you not like the Estonia piano?


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Originally Posted by Dre3030
Mark,
Did you not like the Estonia piano?


No it had some issues with metallic overtones that could never get resolved.

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No it had some issues with metallic overtones that could never get resolved.


Mark' case was very unfortunate and there were a number of people including myself who tried to help. Unfortunately the case never got quite resolved, reasons for this remaining somewhat unclear...

Having sold a great number of Estonias, we have never encountered a single problem not accomplishing the ideal tone our customers wanted. In fact quite the opposite is true - people are totally enamored with their choice. Their appreciation of and for the instrument even appears to increase as time goes by.

This includes a fair number of professional musicians & pianists, 2 orchestra conductors, churches and performance venues. Including one international concert pianist who recently retired in our area.
And they all have their own needs & requirements....

Estonia remains one of the most favorites makes by several of the top tuner/technicians we hire to work on. Provided theses guys are "free" and not on contract with another company. [which most aren't...]

One of them is the chief technician for one Canada's largest and most prestigious concert halls. Having worked mostly on Steinways before, this guy was virtually awe-struck when running into his very first Estonia.

These are the facts.

Again, my regrets to and sympathy for Mark.
Thinking he since has found the right piano for himself - which is fantastic! thumb

Now wouldn't it be an irony if the used Estonia OP looked at originally would actually have been his? They seem to be coming for around the same neck of the woods.

Just kidding....

Norbert grin

Last edited by Norbert; 01/31/16 06:21 PM.

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Norbert as usual will protect the brand to the death. His help was just interfering because he couldn't bear Estonia having problems. I have been in contact with a few unhappy Estonia owners over the past few years. One in Utah had my exact same issue. Outside of the Piano-world Estonia hype there is not much of a following of this piano. Just try selling one.

Last edited by Mark...; 01/31/16 06:46 PM.
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Hi Mark,

I'm betting on longitudinal modes as the cause of the metallic tones. Xylophone or tuning fork like. They require changing the offending strings, if that's the cause, with a slightly different core:wrap ratio, or if it's on an unwound string, a slight diameter change.

All pianos have them, but I hear them most in pianos under 7'. They seem stronger or more bothersome in Steinways, Mason Hamlins and other pianos with the "American" sound. What's interesting is that not everyone hears them. I'm sensitive to them, possibly because I have a hearing loss on one side.

If you look at my signature line you'll see I actually own one of those pianos. I loved it enough that had some of the strings changed when it was brand new to get rid of the out of tune longitudinal modes on mine. The room my piano is in exacerbated some.

If I listen in the store, I can still hear them on any MH A or AA, or any Steinway up to the B.

Anyway, Estonia makes a beautiful piano. Sorry yours didnt work in your room for your ears. My dealer sells them and I almost bought one, and I didn't hear about them here. Room modes and longitudinal modes, can be a bear if your brain and ears are like mine.

What piano did you wind up with?

Last edited by Toddler2; 01/31/16 09:38 PM.

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Norbert as usual will protect the brand to the death.


Estonia doesn't need anybody to "defend" them.
They have long established themselves as one of the finest choices on market.

Quote
I have been in contact with a few unhappy Estonia owners over the past few years.


Wonder how you found them. Here on Piano World I can't recall anyone ever complaining or having an "unsolvable problem". Besides yourself. [sorry..]

Quote
Outside of the Piano-world Estonia hype there is not much of a following of this piano. Just try selling one.


Estonia doesn't make a piano for everyone or needs selling one to everyone.
Those carefully looking and doing their due diligence, will find out quickly what piano it is.

Besides, if there were any used ones in our area, I could sell each one of them. When they "were", they went very quickly finding another appreciating owner.

All players or active pianists if care to know....

Norbert smile

Last edited by Norbert; 01/31/16 10:44 PM.

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Norbert,
A Shakespeare quote comes to mind, it starts with "The lady doth"

You really need to lighten up and let people have their say without always coming back with silliness like that last post. Estonias aren't perfect, neither is any other piano.

Mark's had funny tones. It did. You didn't hear it, he did. My AA did too. Nobody at MH could ever admit they existed, and almost nobody heard them, but I did. So I had the piano recorded and a harmonic spectrogram run. The tones were easy to find, quite visible, and fixable.

You've probably sold plenty of pianos with those tones and not known it. Most people tune out a beating 13th partial. They're just not wired to hear them. Some of us do hear them. Consider youself lucky, but stop acting like it isnt a real problem is some Estonia scales. I suspect Estonia has heard complaints and probably tweaked their strings over time, even I they don't tell you about it.


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I talked to the outside technician who prep the piano (Eric Johnson)... who said that the piano was in tip-top shape. But being able to feel the keys and hear the sound is important to me. And the fact that there would be no warranty due to its age I decided to continue elsewhere with my search.

The good, no great news is... I was able, with the help of the sales manager at Evola music here in Canton Michigan, to purchase a "new" Estonia L190. The deal was done yesterday and I take delivery in 6 days. I've been smiling like a child on Christmas for the past 17 hours.


The facts:

OP first tried a used Estonia and liked it enough to pursue his shopping ending up eventually buying a brand new one. So far so good.

Instead of the customary "Congrats" Mark now posts this:

Quote
Most people never heard of Estonia so its a tough sell. I was asking 25k and took the 23k offer. Glad that piano is behind me...


Since this is not the first time this little "inclusion" happened in curiously similar topic, I questioned the wisdom or "help" of such post. I once owned a "not-so-hot" Toyota but would never the experience to dissuade others buying the make. Everybody knows anyways what fine make Toyota is - so what would be my point?

Instead I pointed out that our experience with Estonia has been extremely good this, based on how much tone modification can be done on the piano by top technical staff. Which is based on simple fact.

At no time did I say this was only true for Estonia or that "Estonia is a perfect piano". Since I am also dealer for some other makes, we happen to get similar results there. Plus would be confident with virtually every other make on market if we were to carry it.

What Toddler posted above may include some Shakespearean wisdom and perhaps some fancy word-smithing but in my 40 years of experience things are really much simpler.

Once a customer has chosen a piano and earned a dealer's trust, in my world of thinking the dealer is obligated to keep him happy. And as long the dealer has a stable of top notch techs, this should really not be a problem.[ again: "independent" of make..]

This happens in perhaps many/most cases but perhaps not in each.
Unfortunately Mark's appeared to have been one such case.

I very much doubt this had anything to do with the piano as such -with same position taken if it was an entirely different make - this being based on the experience of having sold a great deal of these pianos. Plus many others as well. Hope nobody being offended so far...

Besides it's all a tempest in a tea cup.

OP has long made his choice - no doubt he was inspired after playing his first Estonia, the "used" one. Again as they say "[censored] happens" grin

Congratulations to him and everybody else choosing another fine piano!

If ever having problems, write me and I will give best advice I know!
Rest assured: will always treat everybody highly professional, cordially and "100% lightened up".
Even when making not even single cent...

The fruits of having done well and being semi-retired.

Please: not to confuse with Trump.... yippie ha

Norbert thumb

Last edited by Norbert; 02/01/16 01:11 AM.

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