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Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: Marcos Daniel] #2504871
01/28/16 10:22 AM
01/28/16 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcos Daniel
Does it have a virtual Martha Argerich's autograph? shocked


I think it does! Seriously, this piano resonates just beautifully with the pedal down. I am feeling a lot of soul when I'm playing.

I don't think that the Model B is better than the Model D, but this piano is modeled better than the other Pianoteq pianos. I say this even though Pianoteq is the main instrument I practice on. I am so happy I bought the Model B.


Roland FP-90; Pianoteq 6 + many add-ons; 2 Yamaha HS8s; ATH-M50X and Samson SR850 headphones; Xenyx Q802USB interface. 2; I make a living playing a Yamaha PSR-S970 with FBT Maxx 2a's, Crowne Headset Mic. I also play guitar.
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Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: Kawai James] #2504880
01/28/16 10:54 AM
01/28/16 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Wow, the demos sound excellent!

Is this authorised by Steinway, I wonder?

The website clearly mentions that the new instrument is modelled on a Steinway B, while the information pages for some other pianos do not mention a manufacturer.

Kind regards,
James
x


My guess is NO.
If you read their blurb on the Bluthner Model 1 it CLEARLY states that it is Bluthner authorized
(maybe not their exact words).

Last edited by R_B; 01/28/16 10:55 AM.
Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: Beakybird] #2504898
01/28/16 12:00 PM
01/28/16 12:00 PM
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Germany
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panino Offline
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Originally Posted by Beakybird


I think it does! Seriously, this piano resonates just beautifully with the pedal down.


Indeed! Touch is nice, too. But its piano sound still reminds me of synthesized guitar sounds.
But like you said, it resonates beautifully.


MP11, ACD, RME Fireface UC
Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: Kawai James] #2504899
01/28/16 12:00 PM
01/28/16 12:00 PM
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Posts: 166
Vancouver, BC
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Quote
Is this authorised by Steinway, I wonder?

The website clearly mentions that the new instrument is modelled on a Steinway B, while the information pages for some other pianos do not mention a manufacturer.


I am a little confused here. I thought Pianoteq was a completely modeled piano. If so, what would a manufacturer exactly be authorizing? As one cannot control or patent the sound of a particular piano, if someone achieve something close to that sound without using any samples I would think authorization would be meaningless--or at best some kind of gold star.

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Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: NormB] #2504903
01/28/16 12:09 PM
01/28/16 12:09 PM
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Posts: 4,316
Pennsylvania
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Originally Posted by NormB
Quote
Is this authorised by Steinway, I wonder?

The website clearly mentions that the new instrument is modelled on a Steinway B, while the information pages for some other pianos do not mention a manufacturer.


I am a little confused here. I thought Pianoteq was a completely modeled piano. If so, what would a manufacturer exactly be authorizing? As one cannot control or patent the sound of a particular piano, if someone achieve something close to that sound without using any samples I would think authorization would be meaningless--or at best some kind of gold star.



I am not sure about that either.

However, I would venture a guess that there may be some legal matters involved with claiming to have captured the essence of the sound of a particular piano sound. So, Steinway may have to approve (legally) your use of their name or product.



Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: scorpio] #2504909
01/28/16 12:17 PM
01/28/16 12:17 PM
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A quote from their page on the Bluthner Model 1;
"Authorized by Blüthner, this is the world's first physical model of Blüthner's finest grand piano, widely celebrated for use on the concert stage."

Note their use of the word "Authorized".

Whether or not Bluthner's authorization is "needed" may be moot if there is no copyright or patent on sound - perhaps "Endorsed" would be more appropriate ?
Copyrights and patents vary by country/continent, so what is true in some locations may/may_not apply in others, etc.

Perhaps this is a translation and/or semantics issue ? laugh

Last edited by R_B; 01/28/16 12:19 PM.
Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: scorpio] #2504932
01/28/16 01:23 PM
01/28/16 01:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 214
Bangkok, Thailand
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It may have something to do with trademark.
Although Steinway name is mentioned in description, the add-ons are called just D4 and Model B

I think you can sample or model a piano and tell customers which piano it is, but you may not use the registered trademark as a part of product name.

In this case, Blüthner may authorize Modartt to use the name.
(Did they develop it together?)

Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: scorpio] #2504946
01/28/16 02:04 PM
01/28/16 02:04 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 542
Virginia, USA
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Virginia, USA
Quote
I think you can sample or model a piano and tell customers which piano it is, but you may not use the registered trademark as a part of product name.

In this case, Blüthner may authorize Modartt to use the name.
(Did they develop it together?)


+1 Winner, Winner Chicken Dinner! That's why you don't see patches in a DP named Steinway or Yamaha. Many won't even tell you what was sampled in their promotional material. Though some do, m-audio used to proudly proclaim their ProKeys 88 was a sampled Steinway.


A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....
Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: scorpio] #2505003
01/28/16 05:30 PM
01/28/16 05:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,752
Richmond, BC, Canada
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I've just read the Pianoteq blurb for "Model B Grand Piano":

https://www.pianoteq.com/modelb

. . . "Steinway" does not appear in the name of the Pianoteq product.

Nor do they claim that the Steinway company (whoever owns it, now) was involved in the sampling or modelling or tweaking.

Nor do they claim that the Steinway company "approves" (or licensed, or anything else) the software.

They _do_ say that it was based on a Steinway B-211, "Martha Argerich" edition.



. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: scorpio] #2505208
01/29/16 11:15 AM
01/29/16 11:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 166
Vancouver, BC
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Quote
I've only listened to the demos so far, and compared with pretty average YouTube clips of the real thing. I like the PT demos overall - it does sound very nice. The main thing lacking, when I compare it to the real recordings, is that the attacks of the real recordings sound more "solid" - there is just more heft to the sound in the real recordings. I will download the PT demo and see if winding up the hammer noise addresses this.


Listened, tried and bought the Model B. I am not very far along in tweaking it, but I would have to concur about the lack of 'heft'. Many have of course felt that this trait runs right across all the Pianoteq models. Listening carefully to several good midi files through high end gear/headphones the bass end of the piano just seems anaemic. Playing, it very hard to get one of those 'holy s!!!' moments when you powerfully chord the bass. And it isn't a question of loudness--or at least, I personally can't adjust the equalizer to create this missing heft.

Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: NormB] #2505213
01/29/16 11:28 AM
01/29/16 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by NormB
Listened, tried and bought the Model B. I am not very far along in tweaking it ...


I also purchased it and I like it well enough to use it now and then. With all of my VSTs and Pianoteq, I have so many options for piano sounds that I can just keep moving between them as I feel the need.

As far as getting a sound that I think is great, I usually let those folks (like yourself) do that for me. I just wait for the FXPs to show up on the Pianoteq site and pick one.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: scorpio] #2505221
01/29/16 11:58 AM
01/29/16 11:58 AM
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In the early/mid eighties there was a LOT of controversy over patent/copyright issues around sampling, this was when 8 Meg of ram was considered to be huge and able to hold so much data that sounds could be stored/reproduced that were so realistic that the builders of drums and cymbals would likely go out of business.
If you recall "drum machines" were the first devices to replace "musicians" (jokes about drummers aside for the moment).

I don't get to see Steinwegs very often, but the lyre that Modartt is using looks a lot like the SS one.
Whether or not that is copyrighted and where such copyright may apply... I don't know, but it looks like an attempt to imitate a recognizable product mark.
In the US that is probably suit bait, in France and/or Germany ? I don't know.

Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: scorpio] #2505231
01/29/16 12:38 PM
01/29/16 12:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 701
Toronto, Canada
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Strat Offline
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Never liked Pianoteq. Always sounds like a toy compared to the samples.

The tonality is wrong to my ear, the sound not lush or complex. The "heft" comment describes another problem.

Not a fan at all. Maybe in 10 years things will change but they have a long LONG way to go before convincing my ears to buy their product.


Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p
Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: Strat] #2505238
01/29/16 12:50 PM
01/29/16 12:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,155
Connecticut, USA
scorpio Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Strat
Never liked Pianoteq. Always sounds like a toy compared to the samples.

The tonality is wrong to my ear, the sound not lush or complex. The "heft" comment describes another problem.

Not a fan at all. Maybe in 10 years things will change but they have a long LONG way to go before convincing my ears to buy their product.

Well I am a huge fan of Pianoteq. I am not a fan of sampled pianos, at all. Sampled pianos are cumbersome and lack play-ability and the sound is not any more satisfying than Pianoteq. I would not use/load a sample piano even if it was given to me. But then again, there are many acoustic pianos I would not take too.


Kawai MP11 : JBL LSR305 : Focusrite 2i4 : Pianoteq / Garritan CFX

We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams. -Willy Wonka


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Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: scorpio] #2505277
01/29/16 03:22 PM
01/29/16 03:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 701
Toronto, Canada
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Strat Offline
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Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by scorpio
Originally Posted by Strat
Never liked Pianoteq. Always sounds like a toy compared to the samples.

The tonality is wrong to my ear, the sound not lush or complex. The "heft" comment describes another problem.

Not a fan at all. Maybe in 10 years things will change but they have a long LONG way to go before convincing my ears to buy their product.

Well I am a huge fan of Pianoteq. I am not a fan of sampled pianos, at all. Sampled pianos are cumbersome and lack play-ability and the sound is not any more satisfying than Pianoteq. I would not use/load a sample piano even if it was given to me. But then again, there are many acoustic pianos I would not take too.

Congratulations. Gathered that from you starting this thread.

Sampled pianos sound infinitely better than Pianoteq. Last time I played something that sounded like that, I was in diapers and the piano was made by Fisher-Price.

Last edited by Strat; 01/29/16 03:24 PM.

Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p
Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: Strat] #2505282
01/29/16 03:46 PM
01/29/16 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Strat
Never liked Pianoteq. Always sounds like a toy compared to the samples.

Sampled pianos sound infinitely better than Pianoteq. Last time I played something that sounded like that, I was in diapers and the piano was made by Fisher-Price.


You sir are a troll, and it's most unpleasant to have you on this forum. There are many professional musicians, myself included, that love Pianoteq.

Now that you have made yourself clear that you don't like Pianoteq, why don't you keep it to yourself for a while? Maybe you can remind us once a year that your feelings haven't changed. Then the rest of us can have an intelligent conversation.


Roland FP-90; Pianoteq 6 + many add-ons; 2 Yamaha HS8s; ATH-M50X and Samson SR850 headphones; Xenyx Q802USB interface. 2; I make a living playing a Yamaha PSR-S970 with FBT Maxx 2a's, Crowne Headset Mic. I also play guitar.
Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: scorpio] #2505305
01/29/16 04:53 PM
01/29/16 04:53 PM
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Posts: 7,773
Raleigh, North Carolina
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I, too, dislike Pianoteq. Despite the "okay" demos, I've never been able to make it sound good in practice. I've tried every version since v2, and I've been disappointed every time.

As for the comment about diapers and Fisher-Price ... it is wholly juvenile, and quite in keeping with Strat's behavior here. Beaky ... just put a block on him. Problem solved.

Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: Beakybird] #2505307
01/29/16 05:10 PM
01/29/16 05:10 PM
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Posts: 701
Toronto, Canada
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Strat Offline
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Originally Posted by Beakybird
Originally Posted by Strat
Never liked Pianoteq. Always sounds like a toy compared to the samples.

Sampled pianos sound infinitely better than Pianoteq. Last time I played something that sounded like that, I was in diapers and the piano was made by Fisher-Price.


You sir are a troll, and it's most unpleasant to have you on this forum. There are many professional musicians, myself included, that love Pianoteq.

Now that you have made yourself clear that you don't like Pianoteq, why don't you keep it to yourself for a while? Maybe you can remind us once a year that your feelings haven't changed. Then the rest of us can have an intelligent conversation.

You might want to look up the definition of a troll. I simply stated my opinion. It's a bit sad and pathetic to see somebody with so much ego that no other opinion but their own should ever be aired.

An intelligent conversation could have been had but that ship has sailed now that you've posted your piece.


Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p
Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: MacMacMac] #2505308
01/29/16 05:13 PM
01/29/16 05:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 701
Toronto, Canada
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
it is wholly juvenile, and quite in keeping with Strat's behavior here. Beaky ... just put a block on him. Problem solved.

LOL! My comment was a JOKE! Lighten up, Francis.

Last edited by Strat; 01/29/16 05:30 PM.

Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p
Re: Pianoteq Steinway Model B [Re: Strat] #2505325
01/29/16 05:51 PM
01/29/16 05:51 PM
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I guess this is an appropriate thread for SOME debate about Pianoteq vs sampled pianos since they've just introduced a new model (B).

I really hated Pianoteq for quite a while, but with Pianoteq 5 I think they have got something that is a legitimate alternative to sampled pianos. Before the latest introduction of the Model B, I never liked any of their models unmodified, and didn't want to spend much time modifying the models myself (I have the Pianoteq Standard version that allows considerable modifications to the models). But I found several custom PT5 "Steinway" FXP's with attributes that I enjoyed playing - less than the Vintage D or Ivory ACD, but more than I enjoyed most other sampled piano's in my list. I never came close to that before Pianoteq 5, so clearly they are refining and improving their modelling technology.

Now the Model B is the very first model they have produced that I actually enjoy playing with only the slightest modifications beyond simple EQ. So that makes it the best standard model they have released IMO. It's the only model I really want to spend a little time tweaking myself. But I would expect there to be some really good custom FXPs based on the Model B shortly, when the guys that have produced the best previous FXPs based on other models have a chance to work with it.

So I think Pianoteq has come a long, long way, but of course that is just my opinion. Time will tell if it will ever replace my 2 favorite SW pianos, but I like the progress curve it's on now.







Macy

CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
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