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Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: Chris Warren] #2493818 12/26/15 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Warren
I'm really disappointed if this is a design fault with the AGs, but I simply can't believe that supposedly with a real action, repeated legato is not possible. I play a lot of Chopin, and many times will need to repeat a chord in the left hand legato with a melody line running in the right hand. Pressing the sustain pedal will muddy the RH notes, but neither do I want clipped chords in the LH. If this is really the case then I'm going to return the N2 if I can - whats the point of a "real action" if you can't do what a real grand does in terms of mechanics?


Chris, here is the video of Katsaris playing the N3. At 7:54, he is playing crazy fast repeated notes and they are not sounding legato at all to my ear. It's not that he wanted them to be staccato: at that speed the key doesn't even have time to come up and activate the damper. These notes should be legato repeats, but they aren't.

https://youtu.be/Hway_tTFOzc?t=7m53s

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Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: Chris Warren] #2493838 12/26/15 10:23 AM
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I guess when playing that quickly, even if the dampers do touch the strings on a real piano, they may not have time to completely deaden the strings. I can certainly hear the timbre moving around a lot in this Billy Joel playing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L79rarVPloo which I guess is due to the hammers striking strings that are already vibrating. I agree that the A.G notes sound exactly the same for each strike.

I'm curious: Chris - if you try really hard, just on one note, can you find a release point at which you can re-play that note without damping?

Greg.

Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: Chris Warren] #2493847 12/26/15 11:01 AM
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Quote
Just my opinion but when I listen to some of those Cyprien Katsaris demo videos (at the AG N3) the piano sounds extremely poor in quality as there isn't much resonance to the recordings and are somehow very lack-luster and tinny sounding to say the least:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hway_tTFOzc

The very first piece he plays (i.e., Chopin's C-sharp minor Waltz, Op. 64, No. 2) one can hear the "boxiness" of sound -- absolutely no bloom to the sonics in this recording. Is this a fault of the recording itself?

When he plays the next piece -- "The Banjo" by Gottschalk -- the piano literally sounds like a twangy banjo-of-sorts and this is not good. It sucks, really.


I know the Gottschalk piece intimately and beyond the complete suckiness of the sound, it is clear that he is having a lot of trouble with the fast bits; he makes a lot of mistakes where it seems to me it isn't his fault. And yes, his repeated notes aren't anything close to legato.

Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: NormB] #2493890 12/26/15 01:46 PM
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The problem isn't with fast notes per se. You should be able to play a note, slowly let the key back up, and before the point at which the damper deadens the string, play the note again. On the N2, you can find that point, but there's no leeway either side. Too early and the note won't play, too late and the string is damped. On a well regulated grand, there's enough leeway there to reliably play the note again legato without using the sustain pedal (when you're a better standard than me anyway).

I think there's a very slight improvement setting the N2 touch to level 1 - but maybe I'm just being optimistic!

Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: Chris Warren] #2493907 12/26/15 03:30 PM
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Chris: I suspect you'd have the same problem with my Casio that I mentioned. It is rather difficult to hit the sweet spot, especially when playing chords.

Greg.

Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: Chris Warren] #2493916 12/26/15 04:13 PM
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I wonder if all digitals have this problem.

Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: Grandman] #2494075 12/27/15 06:15 AM
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Paradoxically, most other digitals, especially if not in the top bracket, don't suffer from this. Indeed when I played the two new Casios, it was noticeable how you could repeat a note legato by letting the key rise only a few millimetres. This is actually "unrealistic" - but I'd prefer this to not being able to do it at all!

Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: Chris Warren] #2494090 12/27/15 07:35 AM
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By the way, my PX-330 can occasionally cause an unwanted legato repeat, due to key bounce. It seems to happen when I play at moderate velocity (maybe mp?). How noticable this is depends on the sound that is being used at the time. The action is fairly new, too - the entire keybed was replaced under warranty about 18 months ago.

Greg.

Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: Chris Warren] #2497966 01/07/16 09:40 AM
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Chrish,
could you solve the problem with software vst? or is this a problem of Avantgrand N series action?
Would I like to know if the NU1 has the same problem?

Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: Chris Warren] #2497977 01/07/16 10:20 AM
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On the NU1 it's possible to repeat the same note legato. It's not as easy as it is on a good grand piano, but I wouldn't expect it to be, since the NU1 has an upright action with single escapement.


Steinway A grand (1919), Richard Lipp grand (1913), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Casio PX-150 digital (2013)
Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: MRC] #2498337 01/08/16 02:32 PM
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@sorrownightingale

Yes, I can avoid the issue if I use Pianoteq. It also avoids the sustain pedal problem (increases volume mid note). But through headphones at least I prefer the native sound of the N3. I think these problems are the same on all Avantgrands, but hopefully the engineer coming to visit me soon might be able to improve things.

Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: Chris Warren] #2498343 01/08/16 03:24 PM
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Chris: I find the fact that you can avoid the problem with Pianoteq puzzling. You said you could do a legato repeat with your N2, if you did the repeat very slowly and carefully. To me, this suggests that the legato repeat "window" (the portion of the key travel that is able to invoke the legato repeat) is too narrow. The only way I can imagine that Pianoteq could help is if it is making NON legato repeats sound somewhat legato, masking the problem. The way it could do this is by having a longer release time than the N2, so that even when you do non-legato repeats, the slow release hides the problem. The "release" time is the amount of time the sound takes to decay, after you release the key.

Greg.

Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: sullivang] #2498804 01/10/16 06:45 AM
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Hi Greg - my poor explanation - I can't do the legato repeat slowly at all. It's possible with a very quick hard re-attack but sometimes you just don't want that. I can't quite work out why it works with Pianoteq, but it's definitely better.

Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: Chris Warren] #2498805 01/10/16 06:51 AM
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Ah, ok - no worries. Perhaps it would be interesting to reduce the Damping Duration in Pianoteq to zero, and see if you can still do a legato repeat. (it's in the Action menu).

If there really is no point in the key return that allows a legato repeat for the N2's internal sounds, it really is very interesting indeed that it works with an external sound!

Greg.


Last edited by sullivang; 01/10/16 06:53 AM.
Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: Chris Warren] #2503541 01/24/16 05:56 PM
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Just in case this is relevant and helps at all - I can play non legato repeats that sound legato on my Casio PX-330 (listening to it's internal sound), if I lift up and re-play the notes very quickly. I.e - I am not waiting at the top of the key travel at all. Now, if the Casio had damper release sounds, and/or it had a very rapid decay, it may indeed then not sound legato, but it doesn't, so the only thing that happens when the notes are released is a smooth decay of the sound. I'm simply re-playing the notes rapidly enough so there is no appreciable interruption of the sound.

In order to achieve true, damper-less repeats (where no MIDI Note-Off is sent between repeats) there is about a 2mm (from memory - I measured it once) window of opportunity for this, and it takes intense concentration, especially when playing chords. (it is difficult to keep all my fingers perfectly level)

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 01/24/16 06:23 PM.
Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: MRC] #2503703 01/25/16 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by MRC
On the NU1 it's possible to repeat the same note legato. It's not as easy as it is on a good grand piano, but I wouldn't expect it to be, since the NU1 has an upright action with single escapement.


I also have the NU1. I'll try later repeated legato notes and report back the result.

Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: Chris Warren] #2503857 01/25/16 04:02 PM
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Quote

In order to achieve true, damper-less repeats (where no MIDI Note-Off is sent between repeats) there is about a 2mm (from memory - I measured it once) window of opportunity for this, and it takes intense concentration, especially when playing chords. (it is difficult to keep all my fingers perfectly level)


That's an important distinction:

. . . an action that always sends a "Note Off" message before
. . . a "Note On" message, and

. . . an action that can send successive "Note On" messages
. . . without an intervening "Note Off".

The first one lets the sound generator hit the (virtual) string several times, without lowering the (virtual) damper.

I think that's the way acoustic actions work.

I'm pretty sure that Pianoteq handles the sound generation correctly, for successive "Note On" messages. I don't know if all sound generators do.

There's a video by Chilly Gonzalez, which I can't find, in which he just caresses the bass keys gently, until the piano starts to _rumble_. I can get that effect with Pianoteq, but not with the PX-350 sound generator.







. Charles
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PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Repeat note legato on N2 [Re: Charles Cohen] #2503897 01/25/16 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen

The first one lets the sound generator hit the (virtual) string several times, without lowering the (virtual) damper.

I think that's the way acoustic actions work.


That's the way a grand works, but I've read that an upright can't do it. Is that really completely true about the upright? I'n not sure - maybe a repeat can be done with the damper only partially muffling the sound, without completely damping it. Pure surmisal.

Quote
I'm pretty sure that Pianoteq handles the sound generation correctly, for successive "Note On" messages. I don't know if all sound generators do.


Yes, Pianoteq does - I've tested it. At least, it sounded natural to me - I could hear the subtle phasing artifacts that makes the timbre kind of move around with successive strikes.

Greg.

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