Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
138 registered members (akc42, 15shoes, amad23, akressevich, 2literpeter, 90125, Alexwm, ahinton, Alex C, 32 invisible), 1,407 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 11 of 11 1 2 9 10 11
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2497436
01/05/16 05:09 PM
01/05/16 05:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,889
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Online content
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Online Content
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,889
Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
So let me ask this way:

Why do _you_ think the topic of this thread is important?
Is the topic of this thread important because it makes pianos sound better?


If you have something to post that is about what is being discussed, please do so.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
(ad 800)
PTG Convention
PTG Journal
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2497460
01/05/16 06:01 PM
01/05/16 06:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,387
Southwestern Ontario
P
prout Offline
4000 Post Club Member
prout  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,387
Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
So let me ask this way:

Why do _you_ think the topic of this thread is important?
Is the topic of this thread important because it makes pianos sound better?


I think Jeff is on the right track about this thread, and you and I are trying to derail it, although not intentionally, so we should leave off and start a new thread, perhaps, about something else.

My read of this thread is that the concept of a better or best ET sequence is an intellectual exercise - a form of thought experiment that can not actually be tested objectively, due to the limitations of human perception and machine measurement.

I think this type of thought and discussion is wonderful.

Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2497778
01/06/16 05:45 PM
01/06/16 05:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 585
Boston, MA
T
Tunewerk Offline
500 Post Club Member
Tunewerk  Offline
500 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 585
Boston, MA
You are right, PFH, it is an obsession. The differences are very academic. In the real world, the craft of instrument improvement through 100 other avenues is vastly more important.

I've noticed in practice that musicians don't even start to care about a tuning until sections are more than 4c out in relation to one another.

However, in that quiet moment on an excellent intrument, with a sensitive and skilled pianist, a tuning that approaches the ideal is an awesome thing. It is both the beginning and the end of instrument work.

Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
If you look at all the coincident partials between any two notes within an octave, the most significant ones that have a chance of sort of coincide are the octave and the 5ths/4ths. All other pairs of notes within an octave will all end up with significant beats anyway. Most importantly the M3. Of course it's nice to "minimize" the "error" of the M3 to about 13.7 cents, but I don't think it makes the piano less consonant if some M3s are 14.2 cents wide and others are 13.2 cents (examples). Alignment of octaves (and 5ths/4ths), stretch, is far more important.


I agree with you here.. this is my reasoning for slightly unequal 3rds to suit the more important consonances. When partial locations vary, you can only line one set up ideally, or compromise between a few.

Anyway, this is why aural temperaments can be superior to the machine. Equal temperament in practice is never equal because the partial locations themselves are not.

Strict equal temperament only really occurs in theory.


www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: Tunewerk] #2499312
01/11/16 07:02 PM
01/11/16 07:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
A
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member
alfredo capurso  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
I've never understood this obsession with getting a more accurate equal temperament.

For what?

The overall consonance or in-tune-ness (or as per another thread, lower entropy) of the piano doesn't get (significantly) better by it.

If you look at all the coincident partials between any two notes within an octave, the most significant ones that have a chance of sort of coincide are the octave and the 5ths/4ths. All other pairs of notes within an octave will all end up with significant beats anyway. Most importantly the M3. Of course it's nice to "minimize" the "error" of the M3 to about 13.7 cents, but I don't think it makes the piano less consonant if some M3s are 14.2 cents wide and others are 13.2 cents (examples). Alignment of octaves (and 5ths/4ths), stretch, is far more important.

This is not to start a war over ET vs UT. It's just to say that I don't understand how a very accurate and even ET is more consonant than something close to it. They both contain "errors" in the same intervals and of roughly the same magnitude.

Maybe I am missing something.

A sidenote: An very equal temperament octave can be made better and faster by any ETD. Then you can tune aurally from there, octaves and any tweaks you might want. In other words: Tuning an entire piano might still be better done by a skilled aural tuner, but tuning an even temperament octave? I can't see why the aural tuner would be better. Again, not to start a war over ETD vs aural.

I just find the obsession with setting a very even temperament aurally a bit odd.

Originally Posted by Tunewerk
You are right, PFH, it is an obsession. The differences are very academic. In the real world, the craft of instrument improvement through 100 other avenues is vastly more important.

I've noticed in practice that musicians don't even start to care about a tuning until sections are more than 4c out in relation to one another.

However, in that quiet moment on an excellent intrument, with a sensitive and skilled pianist, a tuning that approaches the ideal is an awesome thing. It is both the beginning and the end of instrument work.

Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
If you look at all the coincident partials between any two notes within an octave, the most significant ones that have a chance of sort of coincide are the octave and the 5ths/4ths. All other pairs of notes within an octave will all end up with significant beats anyway. Most importantly the M3. Of course it's nice to "minimize" the "error" of the M3 to about 13.7 cents, but I don't think it makes the piano less consonant if some M3s are 14.2 cents wide and others are 13.2 cents (examples). Alignment of octaves (and 5ths/4ths), stretch, is far more important.


I agree with you here.. this is my reasoning for slightly unequal 3rds to suit the more important consonances. When partial locations vary, you can only line one set up ideally, or compromise between a few.

Anyway, this is why aural temperaments can be superior to the machine. Equal temperament in practice is never equal because the partial locations themselves are not.

Strict equal temperament only really occurs in theory.


Hi All,

Happy New Year!

I do not think this thread should die.. not in that way.

Hi PFH, you wrote: ..."I've never understood this obsession with getting a more accurate equal temperament.

For what?"...

Pro piano tuners get obsessed with getting a more accurate equal temperament because the more it is accurate, the better it (the tuning) sounds.*

..."The overall consonance or in-tune-ness (or as per another thread, lower entropy) of the piano doesn't get (significantly) better by it."...

Perhaps that "(significantly)" explains your question. How "significant" it is, depends on the listener.

..."If you look at all the coincident partials between any two notes within an octave, the most significant ones that have a chance of sort of coincide are the octave and the 5ths/4ths."...

That is correct. It would be wrong, though, if you were to believe that the scale should be made only out of partials that are "sort of" coincident.

..."All other pairs of notes within an octave will all end up with significant beats anyway. Most importantly the M3."...

Correct, beats (IMO) is what we want and what we need in order to create colour.

..."Of course it's nice to "minimize" the "error" of the M3 to about 13.7 cents, but I don't think it makes the piano less consonant if some M3s are 14.2 cents wide and others are 13.2 cents (examples)."...

I do not know why you consider the M3s' width as an "error", perhaps you believe that "correct" M3s should be pure? In any case, if M3s are not smoothly progressive, if they go faster and slower, not really "consonance" but "harmoniousness" is compromised, and with it the texture/power/temperature/color, in one word the meaning of every chord. And, when expanding the temperament compass, approximations will accumulate and affect all the other... intervals?

..."Alignment of octaves (and 5ths/4ths), stretch, is far more important."...

Sorry to say, that is simply wrong. It is wrong twice: firstly, because "alignment" per se means nothing; secondly, because all intervals are "important" when you/we want to address a whole.

..."This is not to start a war over ET vs UT. It's just to say that I don't understand how a very accurate and even ET is more consonant than something close to it. They both contain "errors" in the same intervals and of roughly the same magnitude."...

Wrong: at least in my experience, ET can be executed and not necessarely contain errors. Whether you can hear a difference, that is a different question.

..."Maybe I am missing something."...

For what I understand, you have not grasped the ET beat-geometry in theory, nor experienced a nice ET in practice, consequently you believe that it contains errors. A quasi-ET is a different thing, that might really be worse than many WT's.

..."A sidenote: An very equal temperament octave can be made better and faster by any ETD."...

Where did you hear that?

..."Then you can tune aurally from there, octaves and any tweaks you might want. In other words: Tuning an entire piano might still be better done by a skilled aural tuner, but tuning an even temperament octave? I can't see why the aural tuner would be better. Again, not to start a war over ETD vs aural."...

Well, you may guess why you "..can't see why the aural tuner would be better..".

..."I just find the obsession with setting a very even temperament aurally a bit odd."

That might simply be because you do not (have reasons to) share that ambition.

* Sound and obsession: ask pianists and/or anyone who is determined to improve, perhaps excel, no matter the field.

Kind regards, a.c.
.


alfredo
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: bobrunyan] #2499497
01/12/16 10:16 AM
01/12/16 10:16 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 119
Ben Lomond, CA
B
bobrunyan Offline OP
Full Member
bobrunyan  Offline OP
Full Member
B

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 119
Ben Lomond, CA
There have been several interesting spin-offs of this thread. As the original poster, I can tell you that the original intent of the thread was to get feedback on a particular tuning sequence that I came up with, to see if it might be better than other sequences. I didn't say it explicitly at the time, but what I mean by better is some optimal and objective combination of:

- Minimal notes to tune to get close to equal temperament so that refinement can begin.
- Small accumulation of error.
- Accuracy overall.
- Ease of learning.
- Symmetry, orthogonality.

Some of these criteria overlap. There are other possible criteria.

Several suggestions were offered that enabled me to improve the sequence. Some interesting side discussions came up. Thanks to all who have posted.


Bob Runyan
Ben Lomond, CA
PTG Associate Member
Page 11 of 11 1 2 9 10 11

Moderated by  Piano World 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Petrof
(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater
ad
Jazz Piano Online
Jazz Piano Lessons Online

New Topics - Multiple Forums
Time for first tuning?
by mackguy. 01/17/19 12:47 PM
Chickering Manufactured by Baldwin Mid 1990's
by Leslie C. 01/17/19 12:40 PM
Kawai CA63
by Bibster. 01/17/19 12:19 PM
Supplementing Faber Adult AIO Book 1?
by pianotimo. 01/17/19 09:54 AM
Pianoteq 6.4 - revoiced Steinway D, B and K2
by Groove On. 01/17/19 09:03 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics189,624
Posts2,782,805
Members92,127
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

PianoTeq Petrof
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2