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Re: If good pro classical pianists try to play stride [Re: casinitaly] #2493419
12/24/15 10:19 AM
12/24/15 10:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,449
Urbandale, Iowa
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Steve Chandler Offline
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Steve Chandler  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted by casinitaly
Is there really a need to denigrate a whole genre of music and musicians just because you may not care for them?

I think not.

Would anyone like to get this thread back on track?

Sure, I'll give it a go. How about contrasting the improvisation of jazzers vs. classical.

When Jazz players improvise it is usually a solo over the changes. Classical players will think, what the heck does that mean? The answer is that songs (the great American songbook?) typically consist of a melody and chord progression. The art of jazz improvisation is more often that not (at least 95% of the time) embellishing these melodies and extending the harmony of an existing song. The song could be My Favorite Things, Love Supreme or Somewhere Over the Rainbow, the point is to keep it somewhat recognizable and then go farther and be a bit virtuosic while doing it. Classical players would call this improvising variations, but since this is what jazzers do almost exclusively they just call it improvising.

As just mentioned classical players when improvising may do variations on an existing theme (or song), or they may take a theme and treat it within a classical form, fugue, sonata, rondo or variations. But usually it's none of the above, they're playing off the top of their head and making up a piece from pure imagination.

The downfall of these approaches.
Jazz players can easily improvise badly (especially if they're not good players). The temptation for the good players is to get lost in virtuosity and forget about making music. This is when improvisation descends into "note spray."

Classical improvisers have the same problem, except that they;'re responsible for everything, which means more can be bad. The theme may be insipid, they may not have a wide harmonic lexicon, or they may forget their sense of taste (good judgment) and finally the lure of virtuosity is as much a risk for classical improvisers as for jazz players.

Discuss!

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Re: If good pro classical pianists try to play stride [Re: Greener] #2493441
12/24/15 11:22 AM
12/24/15 11:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
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bennevis Offline
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Originally Posted by Greener

Originally Posted by bennevis
Shirley, they can improvise ...

Please don't call me Shirley. laugh

My apologies, the complete Airplane! series has just been (re)broadcast on British TV, and I keep getting flashbacks of the late, great Leslie Nielsen...... grin


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: If good pro classical pianists try to play stride [Re: bennevis] #2493445
12/24/15 11:31 AM
12/24/15 11:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 26
Canada
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Gettonikid Offline
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" I can even do an imitation of bad jazz (is there any other?)....... "

Wow - to quote a Seinfield episode the next thing you will be saying is that they should have their own schools ... laugh

I would love to hear your thoughts on Blues/Rock keyboardists ...

Wait - what - jazzers do have their own schools?

Re: If good pro classical pianists try to play stride [Re: Gettonikid] #2493452
12/24/15 11:45 AM
12/24/15 11:45 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 4,256
Florida
dogperson Offline

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Originally Posted by Gettonikid
" I can even do an imitation of bad jazz (is there any other?)....... "

Wow - to quote a Seinfield episode the next thing you will be saying is that they should have their own schools ... laugh

I would love to hear your thoughts on Blues/Rock keyboardists ...

Wait - what - jazzers do have their own schools?


I hope there are no replies that disparage blues/rock keyboardist... better to leave negativity unexpressed, as there has been enough divisiveness to last a lifetime. No matter if the path is like our choice, or very different, the goal is the same: to enjoy and make music.



"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: If good pro classical pianists try to play stride [Re: bennevis] #2493463
12/24/15 12:22 PM
12/24/15 12:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,382
*sigh* Salt Lake City
malkin Offline
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malkin  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,382
*sigh* Salt Lake City
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Greener

Originally Posted by bennevis
Shirley, they can improvise ...

Please don't call me Shirley. laugh

My apologies, the complete Airplane! series has just been (re)broadcast on British TV, and I keep getting flashbacks of the late, great Leslie Nielsen...... grin


I love this joke combined with another obscure reference:

"Shirley, by now he stinketh."


Learner
Re: If good pro classical pianists try to play stride [Re: pianoloverus] #2493483
12/24/15 02:31 PM
12/24/15 02:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,283
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izaldu Offline
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izaldu  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,283
In a away this discussion resembles the initial welcoming flamenco guitar players had from the classical guitar community, Segovia initially denied them saying they had rude technique and were very repetitive.

These days, hardly anyone will deny that it's usually much more difficult for a classical guitarist to properly play flamenco than the other way round.

Last edited by izaldu; 12/24/15 02:32 PM.
Re: If good pro classical pianists try to play stride [Re: izaldu] #2493485
12/24/15 02:44 PM
12/24/15 02:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,283
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izaldu Offline
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Berezovsky playing jazz.

I don't know if this has been brought up in this thread, as i haven't read the whole of it, but anyway, i don't really think technique alone can make you a good jazz player. I don't like the above at all.

Re: If good pro classical pianists try to play stride [Re: Steve Chandler] #2493489
12/24/15 03:04 PM
12/24/15 03:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 516
Alberta
1
1RC Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 516
Alberta
Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
When Jazz players improvise it is usually a solo over the changes. Classical players will think, what the heck does that mean? The answer is that songs (the great American songbook?) typically consist of a melody and chord progression. The art of jazz improvisation is more often that not (at least 95% of the time) embellishing these melodies and extending the harmony of an existing song. The song could be My Favorite Things, Love Supreme or Somewhere Over the Rainbow, the point is to keep it somewhat recognizable and then go farther and be a bit virtuosic while doing it. Classical players would call this improvising variations, but since this is what jazzers do almost exclusively they just call it improvising.


I see this as an improvising alone vs with others distinction. Alone you can go off into whatever harmonic territory you like, but I don't know how two or more people would be able to read each others minds in real time to pull that off, maybe taking turns at best? So once you have two or more people it becomes a practical consideration to be following the framework of the chord changes.

I'm not very well versed in jazz but don't some of the greats also do free improvisations if they're playing solo?

Last edited by 1RC; 12/24/15 03:04 PM.
Re: If good pro classical pianists try to play stride [Re: bennevis] #2493492
12/24/15 03:19 PM
12/24/15 03:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,262
Reseda, California
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JohnSprung Offline
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,262
Reseda, California
Originally Posted by bennevis
[...bad jazz (is there any other?).......


99+% of everything is bad. Over time, people keep and play the little bit that's good, and the rest gets forgotten. Jazz, being newer, still has more forgetting to be done.



-- J.S.

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Re: If good pro classical pianists try to play stride [Re: izaldu] #2493502
12/24/15 04:13 PM
12/24/15 04:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,416
uk south
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beeboss Offline
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Joined: Jul 2009
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uk south
Originally Posted by izaldu
Berezovsky playing jazz.

I don't know if this has been brought up in this thread, as i haven't read the whole of it, but anyway, i don't really think technique alone can make you a good jazz player. I don't like the above at all.


Judging by that I think it may take him some time to get to grips with Tatum. His classical technique is not helping much.

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