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This post could make me look foolish but here goes.
I have a Kawai ES8 now and love it.
Longer term I would like the flexibility of some more sounds (sometimes called tones) and rhythms (sometimes called styles).
I don't want to make complex adjustments, or compose or use a sequencer or recorder etc. I would just like the option of saying for a particular piece, I would like the main instrument for example to be a sax or guitar etc.
I know that with a Roland BK7M I can connect via midi and do all of this adding hundreds of styles and sounds. I think you can even get it to play a rhythm while you use a sound from your keyboard.
I just wondered if there were any other viable options, just so I can compare.
I don't need other piano sounds as the ES8 ones are more than adequate for me, to my ear they are superb.
But all the brass, woodwind, guitar etc sounds and more ready made rhythms / styles would be great.
I did hook up my piano to my laptop to look at software options. I have a decent spec (i5 with 8Gb & SSD drive) but no dedicated graphics card and it didn't work that well (latency).
Are there other hardware options for example?
Any advice gratefully received

Many thanks

Steve

>I have a decent spec (i5 with 8Gb & SSD drive) but no dedicated graphics card and it didn't work that well (latency).

Did you try the (free) ASIO4ALL driver? I doubt your graphics card is the problem for latency, the problem is rather that your built-in audio card doesn't have good low latency drivers, but ASIO4ALL can fix that as it is capable of even driving very basic built-in cards at low latency.

>Are there other hardware options for example?

As far as I know the BK7M is the only real module of its kind. Maybe find a 2nd hand keyboard with a real MIDI input and hook it up to the ES8?

It's interesting to read about your problem. As someone from a keyboard background I was considering buying the ES8 but I didn't like the fact that it didn't even come with a full GM2 set. So that's pretty much the problem you have now.

Thank you. I'll look into the driver but sounds like the bk7m or midi kbd look like the other options. I don't regret the es8 one bit, and I'm sure I'll add something someday to expand it.. Cheers

I'm curious about your latency. I don't think you should have a problem, so perhaps with a bit of troubleshooting and testing, you should be able to reduce that.

I think the ASIO4ALL driver is what is highly recommended to reduce latency. With an SSD like you have, you shouldn't have an issue. There is also buffer size to tweak, and possibly using an interface. But with USB MIDI, you should be good to go.

Try doing a search on latency on this site, and there are a number of great threads with suggestions to try.

Really, software is the way to go. So many more sound options, and some good ones even for free (Native Instruments offers quite a few free ones).

What software instruments were you trying, and what DAW?

I suspect that most replies you get will be from those who enjoy using a PC or Mac with their music making. So this post is intended to simply add another perspective from an owner of the BK7m. There is no right or wrong approach when considering either direction, but their is a more or less suitable approach based on individual needs.

I have the BK7m. It just works. Period. No hassles, no latencies, it just works. It can play various backing tracks in a variety of styles, and it will follow your left hand quite accurately (even understands inversions), so it changes chords in its backing while you play your keyboard. In that sense, it is interactive. In addition to that, it can play midi, MP3, and WAV files from a USB stick. Any midi file player/sequencer can change the tempo (slower or faster) without changing pitch, but in addition to that, the BK7m can do the same with the MP3 or WAV files, as well as being able to set/reset loop points. This allows you to use the BK7m for figuring out tunes by ear. All this is very easy to do.

The BK7m is quite a versatile device with none of the hassles one can encounter with software on a PC. The sounds in the BK7m are quite good, and include the Natural Sound pianos, among lots of other decent sounding instruments. It definitely does not sound cheesy. There are many professional musicians using it in their solo gigs, both keyboard and accordion players.

As others have pointed out, there are advantages to using software on a PC or Mac. To me, either choice has its pros and cons. I have been a software engineer for well over 20 years, so I am quite familiar with computers. However, I still prefer dedicated hardware because I really have absolutely no interest in fiddling around with getting software running on a PC and then working in my specific environment. I have done it often enough (and even written my own midi software), but as I get older, I just don't have the patience for that anymore. I just want to turn it on and make music. Life is too short to do otherwise. For me, the BK7m is ideal. For those who want to incorporate a PC or Mac in their music making, it would probably not be a good choice.

As for cost, the BK7m is more expensive than many software packages because it is comparable to having to buy a PC and the software, where you already have your PC or you would not be posting here, so all you need is to buy the software. You have to decide which approach best suits your needs. Either choice has its good points.

Tony

Well, I appreciate the hardware perspective, but I don't think you can lump in PCs and Macs into the same category. When I got my VPC1 and Truekeys American, I was up and running very quickly, and consistently, with little latency (hardly noticeable once I set the buffer to a decent amount), every single time. I had to disconnect my laptop pretty much every time for using it for other things, so it wasn't a "set it up and let it go" scenario. Very consistent.

I'm really contemplating using my laptop for software sounds hooked up to my MOX6 for playing with my church band. I just need to have some time to play around with the different sounds and figure out what I want to try.

Plus, not sure if the OP is gigging or not. If not, it's definitely worth trying to tweak his setup a bit before investing in the Roland unit, IMO.

The ASIO4ALL should fix your latency problems, even if not you could buy a new external interface and DAW setup with thousands of sounds/rhythms for less than 1/3 the cost of the BK7m. If money isn't a concern and you really don't want to muck around a BK7m might be a good option though.

It is a decision each of us must make for ourselves. As I mentioned in my post, I am simply giving a perspective that I doubt many who choose to post in a thread such as this, would. I would never say that one approach is better than the other in general. But I will emphasize that each person must evaluate according to his or her own requirements. I felt that I did that in my post.

In another thread, we discussed at length PCs vs Macs. I said in that thread that, among the people I know who are interested in computers as a tool, rather than as in interest in themselves, the Mac users seem MUCH happier with their platform and they seem to be able to focus on the task at hand, rather than getting the platform to work.

My saying "PCs and Macs" in my post here was simply to be inclusive of both platforms as being a platform running software as opposed to a dedicated hardware solution. If I didn't do that, whichever platform I left out would draw followup comments about that. I have seen all too many PC vs Mac threads come up, and I really don't wish to go there myself.

Unfortunately, after I make a post that I believe to be clear and even-handed, giving my reasons for my choices and attempting to handle the pros and cons of each even-handedly, I seem to need to continue posting follow-up posts explaining again and again what I said, trying to make still more clear to each individual who takes issue with something I did or did not include in my post. If I tried to cover all bases and all possible issues people seem to have with my posts, each would be an entire screen full and I really don't care to write a book every time I post. Maybe I should make it simpler for everybody and simply not post at all. I do hope that my comments about the BK7m were at least somewhat helpful as the OP makes a consideration on the subject being discussed in this thread. If not, then please just ignore my previous post.

Tony

Thanks to all for the posts.
Really appreciated and it's good to be able to look into different options.
I think I understand most of what has been said, I think the main thing I don't understand is AndrewJCW saying I could buy an external interface and DAW for less than a third of the price of the Roland. Not sure what this would actually be. My ignorance I'm afraid.
I am not looking to gig with this. Just for my own enjoyment at home.
The ES8 has 30 odd voices and a few dozen rhythm styles. Just want to add many more as easily as possible.
All I really want to do is to be able to say I'd like to play a piece of e.g. easy listening music, and choose say a saxophone as the main instrument and a rhythm style not available on the ES8.
Another song I would just use the ES8.
I'll look at the driver, many thanks, but so far I have only used one software trial called pianissimo. Just to see if I could get it to work.
I am not instrested in adding piano sounds, just sounds that are not on my piano and rhythms which are also not on it.
Thanks very much again to all for your help...
Steve

Wow. Tony, I felt you were clear in your post. I was simply presenting another side of things and mentioning that I do feel that Macs are less "picky" or easier to just get up and running than PCs. I said this because I wanted the OP to understand that there is a difference in case they wanted to look into using a Mac instead. It's best to be informed before committing a lot of money to something.

This is how forums work, AFAIK. You present your "argument" ( I use quotes, because no one is arguing here), and another person presents theirs. Sometimes there's need for a back and forth, but usually not unless further explanation is required. I don't think there was in your case.

I think it's fair to say that you presented your case well, and I presented a "counter-argument", but no need to repeat what you said, as I don't feel there is a misunderstanding, just a further clarification which I made.

I also think it's fair that people will post after you, but that doesn't mean what you've said is gone unnoticed. It's OK to not have the last word and it doesn't invalidate your position to not reiterate what you've already posted.

I'm not really sure why you felt you weren't understood. You seemed upset, so I hope that no bad feelings are going on here. Just posting what I think.

An external interface would function just like your MIDI USB from the ES8 to the computer. This can help with latency since it is a sound card that would bypass the sound card in your computer, which is often not ideal for MIDI.

So you'd plug your ES8 into the interface, the interface would plug into the computer via USB, and then you'd use some software plug-in on a DAW. I'm not sure if this would help the latency or not, which is why it's best to try to tweak your current system before investing in equipment. What you have already may work just fine, you just need to do some troubleshooting for latency (which has been discussed at length on this forum).

Right. Thank you for the explanation.. I'm sure I can sort the latency.. I just need to find software that will do the same sort of thing as the bk7m fir sounds and styles, so I can have a good and fair comparison...
If not the module sounds like a good solution.
Cheers...

I'm just getting into the VST world myself, so I'm not knowledgable as to which ones can offer the accompaniment feature specifically. Hopefully someone else can expound on that.

If you want something similar to the full MIDI soundset, and you need drum loops, I can recommend IK Sampletank 3. It's a bit pricey, but you get a lot for the price, and it's an all in one solution. You can get very high quality individual libraries for instruments (Strings and Brass are very popular, sometimes having 40GB+ just for a string ensemble...) but as I said, if you need drum loops as well, Sampletank has you covered.

If you want to go free and don't mind synth sounds, there are other options.

It sounds as if the OP has the information he needs to move forward, so I think the communications have been reasonably clear for that. What I was trying to clarify in my second post was that I was not intending to lump PCs and Macs together in any manner other than that they are both platforms that run software the user selects and installs. It seemed to me that my intention here was not understood, so I posted again to clarify that. I figured that if you had an interpretation different from what I intended, then most likely the OP did too.

I have seen threads in which the discussion can get muddied unintentionally through unclear posts, and I don't want to be the cause of that. This was my concern. I would rather not post and let the OP get the information he needs from the other posters in the thread, rather than to post and clutter things up needlessly. So, for me, it isn't so much a matter of hard feelings, but instead presenting accurate information.

Tony

I agree, the BK7m is a very nice piece of kit.

However, I would like to note that - with the exception of MP3/WAV pitch shifting - the ES8 can do all of those things, right out of the box.

True, the BK7m may offer a broader selection of styles, but it's not an inexpensive purchase, and given that Steve already has access to a pretty powerful laptop, software may provide a more cost effective (and flexible option) to augmenting the sounds and styles built into the ES8.

Kind regards,
James
x

Along with the 34 main voice and 100 styles (200 if you include variations), there are also 42 additional 'Rhythm Section' sounds. As the name suggests, these are intended to be used by the Rhythm Section (or MIDI) rather than for playing solo, however they do include guitar, brass, and additional synth sounds. These 'hidden' sounds are not accessible directly from the front panel, but can be selected by MIDI either externally (e.g. by a computer), or from the ES8 itself (e.g. by using a MIDI loopback cable and entering the MIDI program number). It's a bit of fuss, but it's possible...although there are still no saxaphone sounds, even following this method.

Rethinking the BK7m again, this may well be the best solution. Not because it is more flexible, higher quality, or affordable than the computer+software route, but simply because - as Tony notes - it just works. If you're looking for additional sounds and styles to complement what is already available with the ES8, it should more than meet your requirements.

Kind regards,
James
x

Agreed. I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread that, since he obviously already has a PC of some kind (since he is posting here), the cost of software would be far less than the BK7m. I compared buying the BK7m to having to buy both the computer itself and the software. So, yes, we are in agreement on that.

Here is the quote taken from my earlier post:

As for cost, the BK7m is more expensive than many software packages because it is comparable to having to buy a PC and the software, where you already have your PC or you would not be posting here, so all you need is to buy the software.

Tony

SteveDoz
You might consider One Man Band:One Man Band Site

It's inexpensive ($49). You just hook your ES8 midi to your PC. Select a voice and style in OMB and it then recognizes the chords you play and controls the accomp accordingly.

There are tons of free Yamaha styles available that it can use and you can use the synth built in to your PC or get VSTs for better sounds. There is a free demo version you can try.

There is software that is very simple to host VSTs. Rather than being a DAW or other full-functioned software with a relatively steep learning curve (and sometimes associated cost, depending on the package), all this software is intended to do is be a host:

www.cantabilesoftware.com/

I have this and have used it to experiment with various sound module type VSTs such as Omnisphere and a few others. It works well, is very simple, and comes in various flavors for a price that is easy on the pocketbook.

For somebody who has a PC, but does not yet have any music-oriented software installed, this might be a good entry into that world. Of course, if you already have some software that can host VSTs and various other plugin types, then you won't need this particular software.

Tony