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Tuning Simulator #2487513
12/04/15 01:55 PM
12/04/15 01:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 119
Ben Lomond, CA
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bobrunyan Offline OP
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Ben Lomond, CA
Hi all,

I've developed a Tuning Simulator that you can have a look at and download from the following link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Y1_Fc6XohmKh6bPCE5olso5VCDfIZdPYiOsR2k5KGIQ/edit?usp=sharing

The simulator enables you try tuning the notes of the temperament octave F3-F4 by adjusting their frequencies. The resulting beat rates are then displayed for all of the intervals in which audible beats occur. Deviation from equal temperament is also displayed.

This simulator simulates real tuning in some important ways, but leaves out many of the difficulties we face on real pianos, like strings that are not perfect, inharmonicity, the difficulty of setting strings and pins, hearing subtle differences in beat rates, etc.

Even without these difficulties, you'll find that it is not easy to set a temperament. I've initialized it to be out of tune. Try your temperament sequence and see if you can get it back in tune.


Bob Runyan, RPT
Chico, CA
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Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2487542
12/04/15 03:32 PM
12/04/15 03:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,007
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
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After I changed the formulas to show negative numbers for narrow intervals, it took me 30 minutes to get all the RBIs progressive using the 8-note, P5 temperaments sequence I have been using:

frequency of F3 174.60 174.61 -0.1
frequency of F#3: 185.00 185.00 0.0
frequency of G3: 196.00 196.00 0.0
frequency of G#3: 207.70 207.65 0.4
frequency of A3: 220.00 220.00 0.0
frequency of A#3: 233.10 233.08 0.1
frequency of B3: 246.95 246.94 0.1
frequency of C4: 261.60 261.63 -0.2
frequency of C#4: 277.10 277.18 -0.5
frequency of D4: 293.68 293.67 0.1
frequency of D#4: 311.20 311.13 0.4
frequency of E4: 329.60 329.63 -0.1
frequency of F4: 349.20 349.23 0.0





Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: UnrightTooner] #2487556
12/04/15 04:07 PM
12/04/15 04:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 119
Ben Lomond, CA
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bobrunyan Offline OP
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Ben Lomond, CA
Jeff,

Thanks for trying the simulator!

I decided not to show the narrow intervals as negative because when we are tuning real pianos we don't have that advantage. Sometimes I don't know whether I am narrow or wide, especially with fourths and fifths, until I test.


Bob Runyan, RPT
Chico, CA
Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2487743
12/05/15 06:10 AM
12/05/15 06:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,007
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
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Bradford County, PA
It wouldn't have taken me nearly as long if I had remembered that without iH, the 5ths beat about 3/4 bps instead of 1/2 bps on a real piano.

I can't imagine not knowing if a 4th or 5th is wide or narrow. It is so obvious when you tune them. It was with me from my first try. But, yeah, use all the tools and tests that are available that you might need.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: UnrightTooner] #2488419
12/07/15 10:55 AM
12/07/15 10:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 119
Ben Lomond, CA
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bobrunyan Offline OP
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Ben Lomond, CA
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
It wouldn't have taken me nearly as long if I had remembered that without iH, the 5ths beat about 3/4 bps instead of 1/2 bps on a real piano.


Without iH, the beat rates for 5ths in the F3-F4 octave range from 0.6 to 0.8. In real pianos, it depends on the piano. I can't tell the difference between 0.5 bps and 0.75 bps reliably in a real piano anyway.

At your suggestion, I've changed the simulator to show narrow intervals as negative. Without this help, it turned out harder to figure out which side of pure you're on with the simulator than with a real piano.


Bob Runyan, RPT
Chico, CA
Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2488518
12/07/15 03:50 PM
12/07/15 03:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 253
Upper Middle Tennessee
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Bellyman Offline
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I have a lot of stuff turned off on my computer so I'm not sure if I may have missed something important.

Does this simulator actually have aural output that I can hear and adjust the frequencies until I hear what I think is the appropriate interval?


Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2488543
12/07/15 04:55 PM
12/07/15 04:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 119
Ben Lomond, CA
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bobrunyan Offline OP
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Ben Lomond, CA
No. You just enter frequencies and you see the resulting beat rates of the various intervals.

I wonder if someone might be interested to take the next step and write a program to generate sampled piano tones and allow one to adjust their frequencies. You could diplay beat rates and frequencies of fundamental and partials or optionally cover them up and check them after you finish setting a temperament.


Bob Runyan, RPT
Chico, CA
Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2488546
12/07/15 05:01 PM
12/07/15 05:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 119
Ben Lomond, CA
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bobrunyan Offline OP
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Ben Lomond, CA
To calculate the beat rates accurately, you'd need inharmonicity numbers for each note of the temperament octave of the piano from which the samples were recorded (or at least a piano with the same scaling).


Bob Runyan, RPT
Chico, CA
Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2488551
12/07/15 05:30 PM
12/07/15 05:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,637
Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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Canberra, ACT, Australia
Here is my version with sound and inharmonicity:
Tuning Simulator
Let me know if you have trouble opening and running it.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2488563
12/07/15 06:04 PM
12/07/15 06:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 119
Ben Lomond, CA
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bobrunyan Offline OP
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Ben Lomond, CA
Chris,

I've just installed Java on my Windows machine. I'm running the Chrome browser. Eager to try your simulator. When I click on the downloaded .jar file, nothing happens. Tried it in Internet Explorer as well. That gets me as far as unzipping the file, where I see a bunch of classes and a folder called "MF".

Any ideas?



Bob Runyan, RPT
Chico, CA
Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2488577
12/07/15 06:48 PM
12/07/15 06:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Southwestern Ontario
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prout Offline
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Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted by bobrunyan
Chris,

I've just installed Java on my Windows machine. I'm running the Chrome browser. Eager to try your simulator. When I click on the downloaded .jar file, nothing happens. Tried it in Internet Explorer as well. That gets me as far as unzipping the file, where I see a bunch of classes and a folder called "MF".

Any ideas?


Bob,

Just rename the file folder you downloaded, which should be named "Tones.zip" to the new name "Tones.jar". This icon will then change from a zip folder to a java executable. Just click on the executable and the tuner will open.

Hey Chris, Thanks for posting the new version. I really like it.

Last edited by prout; 12/07/15 07:03 PM.
Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2488578
12/07/15 06:49 PM
12/07/15 06:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 253
Upper Middle Tennessee
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Bellyman Offline
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Upper Middle Tennessee
It worked on my computer, Chris. It will take some playing with it to get good enough not to tweak stuff I didn't intend to while trying to do something else. Plus, my computer speakers are pretty awful... gotta see if a set of headphones will help.

Interesting program. Thanks for sharing.

Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2488687
12/08/15 04:10 AM
12/08/15 04:10 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Mark R.  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Chris,

Fascinating programme! I'll test my current sequence (CM3s, then U3U3D5) to see what I get... I played around for a few minutes to try and set CM3s from F3 to A4. Pity that C#3 is not included. I found octave setting quite difficult (obviously not looking at the numbers). But perhaps my earbuds are simply over-emphasising the higher partials.


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2488692
12/08/15 04:28 AM
12/08/15 04:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,637
Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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Chris Leslie  Offline
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Canberra, ACT, Australia
Thanks Mark. I know what you mean about listening to octaves. I think it is because the partials have a fixed and uniform volume. A real piano will probably favour certain partials and thus create a specific purer sounding octave somewhere. In a previous version I had the option to adjust the relative weighting of the partials but I removed it in later versions to make the program simpler to use.

Sorry about the C#3. Also in previous versions the whole keyboard compass was used so you could tune a whole piano, but it got very complicated.

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 12/08/15 04:34 AM.

Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2488874
12/08/15 06:23 PM
12/08/15 06:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Mark R.  Offline
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Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
I've recently upgraded my home PC to Windows 10. Chrome (v. 47) won't open the .jar file... I gather Chrome no longer supports NPAPI. And the built-in browser, MS Edge, apparently doesn't support plugins - and neither does Internet Explorer (v. 11).

So, as far as this PC noob can see, I can't open the .rar file. Can anyone advise?


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: Mark R.] #2488954
12/08/15 11:01 PM
12/08/15 11:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Southwestern Ontario
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prout Offline
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Joined: Nov 2013
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Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted by Mark R.
I've recently upgraded my home PC to Windows 10. Chrome (v. 47) won't open the .jar file... I gather Chrome no longer supports NPAPI. And the built-in browser, MS Edge, apparently doesn't support plugins - and neither does Internet Explorer (v. 11).

So, as far as this PC noob can see, I can't open the .rar file. Can anyone advise?


I have windows 10 on two computers, both doing automatic updates. One opened the downloaded file from Chris immediately. The other computer required that I change the file type from .zip to .jar, which subsequently has worked well.

Both files were downloaded and saved and then opened as an executable file. I have not tried to run a file from a browser.

Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2489002
12/09/15 04:48 AM
12/09/15 04:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Mark R.  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Thanks, prout. I also downloaded the .jar and then tried to run it. However, Windows 10 could not find a suitable application. That's how I came to try the various browsers, thinking that they may be Java-enabled. Could it be that I need to install some form of Java for Windows 10? (Sorry for OT)


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2489042
12/09/15 09:47 AM
12/09/15 09:47 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Southwestern Ontario
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prout Offline
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Joined: Nov 2013
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I am not sure where the problem lies. Perhaps Chris can solve it.

Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: prout] #2489054
12/09/15 10:28 AM
12/09/15 10:28 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 119
Ben Lomond, CA
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bobrunyan Offline OP
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Ben Lomond, CA
I'm having the same problem on my computer with Windows 10. I downloaded the file and it showed up in my download folder as .jar file. I've installed Java. Testing Java shows that it is enabled. When I try to run the .jar file, nothing happens.

It works fine on my wife's computer, running Windows 7.


Bob Runyan, RPT
Chico, CA
Re: Tuning Simulator [Re: bobrunyan] #2489060
12/09/15 10:44 AM
12/09/15 10:44 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,007
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
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Bradford County, PA
I guess I will hold off on upgrading from Window 8.1 to Windows 10...


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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