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Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
faulhorn #2487944 12/05/15 06:35 PM
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I, too, do not like having to depend on a computer. But I have no choice. There's no other way to make a digital piano sound like a piano.

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Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
TonyB #2487972 12/05/15 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyB


Yes, I have. I am posting from firsthand experience. I have trained people on new sound equipment as well as using the computer. In the situations I was in, somebody who knows the equipment MUST be on hand for rehearsals as well as the situations in which the "performance" is being done (i.e. services, funerals etc). There is a responsibility on the part of those who introduce the equipment to make sure it is useful. Usually, there will be two or three people who know the equipment and can share in these duties so one person is not stuck doing it all.

I am not arguing for or against using a computer. I personally wouldn't want to have to mess about with a computer to be able to use my DP, but I have seen where there are people who seem to favor that approach. The only thing I intended in posting was to say that I have "been there, done that" and it is doable. However, there is a big responsibility on those who wish to go that route to insure that the equipment is properly taken care of and properly run. I thought I had made that clear in my post. That often will require one of those who know the equipment to be present EVERY time it is used.

Just to be clear, when I was involved in the church music, I really was not at all interested in making it all complicated. I always felt that making things all complicated tended to be more of a distraction than anything else. Personally, I don't want big amplification systems and all that stuff. In church, it isn't a performance, but instead simply to lead people singing. People often find ways to justify it anyway, saying it is for "the Lord" or whatever. I never bought into that. That argument always seemed like the joke about the husband who buys a fine fishing tackle setup for his wife's birthday, knowing she has no interest in it (but he does).

In other words, the people who wanted big, complicated sound and computer systems for the service always seemed to be interested in that themselves and they wanted to play. The congregation really couldn't care less. In my experience (and this was very consistent), all the congregation cared about was that they could hear what was going on. I would think that most any decent digital piano would satisfy most congregations these days.

However, if the people decide that a computer setup is the direction they want to go, then I was there to help. It has been some years since I was involved in church, but my experiences still stand. I wouldn't post about something like this if I had no personal experience with it.

Tony



I think we are in agreement here. It can be done, but probably more work than it's worth. wink


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
Morodiene #2487977 12/05/15 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene


I think we are in agreement here. It can be done, but probably more work than it's worth. wink


Well said. smile

Tony


Roland V-Grand
Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
TonyB #2488049 12/06/15 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by TonyB
. . .
So, my advice is simple. Go to dealers where the various DPs are on display and try them, or bring along somebody who is a skilled player and have that person try them. A digital piano is not an acoustic, and no amount of pretending or posturing can change that any more than we can turn water into gold.

If the digital piano is suitable according to the buyer's own requirements and on its own merits as a digital piano, then it is worth buying. If the only thing that will satisfy a particular person is an acoustic piano, then getting a digital piano and trying to pretend it is an acoustic in disguise will only result in disappointment. Some digital pianos will exhibit certain attributes shared with a acoustic piano more readily than other digital pianos, and that aspect is worth consideration.



FWIW --

Part 1: On Acoustic vs Digital Pianos

Tony's analysis is very good. It suggests a resolution the OP (or his church committee) might not like:

. . . Maintain the grand piano you have now properly,
. . . or replace it with a better one if that's impossible;

. . . Get a DP to supplement it.

Tony's suggestion of doing some on-the-ground research has been repeated several times. It's the only way you'll find out the _real_ requirements for _that_ church, and _those_ players. We haven't heard from the pianists who will actually be playing the instrument(s), after they've tried some of the better DP's available.

I've been in situations where someone who doesn't really understand a problem says:

. . ."Here -- this is what you need!"

to people who _do_ understand the problem. Usually, it doesn't work out well.

Part 2: On the question of software pianos:

. . . I'm happy with Pianoteq in my own room,
. . . running on my own computer.

I wouldn't want to set up Pianoteq for anyone else, especially in a semi-public environment. There are lots of things that can go sideways, and figuring out _how_ they went sideways isn't simple.

It's a reliability-and-testing issue:

If you were building a thousand Linux computers running Pianoteq, you could spend enough time and money to make sure they were reliable systems.

If you were building only one, you couldn't do enough testing to really wring out the bugs, and make sure that it was really locked-down. [I may be underestimating the reliability and stability of Linux, and the stability of Pianoteq.]



. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
faulhorn #2488056 12/06/15 03:07 AM
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U need a kawai cp1

Looks like an acoustic sounds like one too - it's a no brainer

http://www.kawaius.com/digital/CP/cp_1.html

Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
faulhorn #2488179 12/06/15 01:30 PM
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That CP1 lists at $21,000. For that money you can get a nice-sized acoustic. One that sounds more like a piano than any digital.

Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
faulhorn #2488261 12/06/15 05:29 PM
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When I bought my V-Grand, there was a CP-1 right next to it in the showroom. I preferred the V-Grand by far. That is a matter of personal preference, since there was nothing wrong with either model. I like the keybed of the V-Grand better, but then I don't have a history with acoustic pianos, so maybe somebody else may have reacted differently. I also felt that the V-Grand seemed more responsive or "immediate" somehow. The CP-1 looked more impressive in a 747 control panel sort of way though.

Tony



Roland V-Grand
Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
faulhorn #2488314 12/06/15 09:11 PM
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If money was no object, I'd outbid the customer that bought this BEAUTIFUL Steinway B Sterling that's in my local Roland/Steinway Dealers store.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE that piano!!!

Jay

Last edited by Jay Roland; 12/06/15 09:14 PM.

Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
MacMacMac #2488550 12/07/15 04:29 PM
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THANK YOU ALL for the comments. Very much appreciated. Rest assured that our pianists are great people and flexible, we have full time people manning the PA when it is being used, and we already have people patching their own laptops to our keyboards for a while and there's not been a problem. If people attend church and don't have the attitude of humility and service, and are prone to arguing, then I don't see the point of having them serve. So that's not a problem in the extended period we have had with our new PA system and technologies.

I had decided to suggest the AvantGrand and then the Kawai Cp1 suggestion was just offered. Hmmm...complicates thigns a bit. Have to look it up.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That CP1 lists at $21,000. For that money you can get a nice-sized acoustic. One that sounds more like a piano than any digital.

Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
faulhorn #2488696 12/08/15 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by faulhorn
I had decided to suggest the AvantGrand and then the Kawai Cp1 suggestion was just offered. Hmmm...complicates thigns a bit. Have to look it up.

The Kawai CP1 is quite a different thing to a Yamaha AvantGrand. Having tried both, I can say that a classical pianist will be more at home with an AvantGrand. Most importantly, for somebody used to playing on a grand piano, the touch of the Kawai, while good for a DP, cannot compete with that of the Yamaha. The Kawai also has an enormous amount of bells and whistles and presents the pianist with an impressive display of controls. The Yamaha is a bare-bones affair: the pianist doesn't see any buttons, dials or touch screen in front of them, and indeed there's very little that can be changed.

Apart from that the CP1 has a fabulous sound from its own speakers, probably just as good as the AvantGrand N3, but that doesn't interest you so much.


Steinway A grand (1919), Richard Lipp grand (1913), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Kawai ES-100 (2019)
Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
faulhorn #2488701 12/08/15 04:43 AM
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I own a Yamaha AvantGrand N3 and would recommend the N1, N2, or N3.

Even though I haven't tried the new Casio hybrid models, I'd also add those two new models to the list to try.

If you want a real piano action (grand action) married to a digitally sampled grand, those are your only options.

I should add that I tried the Yamaha NU1 which uses an upright piano action and I gave serious thought to buying one. I found it more difficult to play than the Yamaha N series; I'd rather work a little at home and then coast a bit on a job.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
faulhorn #2488703 12/08/15 04:58 AM
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Although I own an NU1, I wouldn't recommend it for this situation. For my purposes (intensive practice) it's fine, but it has an infuriating quirk: all of a sudden one note will sound much louder than it should, given the strength at which it was played.

The problem is known to Yamaha and even mentioned in the instruction manual, where it is stated that this is normal, "but only very seldom occurs." Depending on your playing style and repertoire, it may in fact occur quite frequently. The effect of a sudden fortissimo note coming out of the speakers in a concert could be very nasty.

The AvantGrands do not have this problem.


Steinway A grand (1919), Richard Lipp grand (1913), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Kawai ES-100 (2019)
Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
MRC #2488711 12/08/15 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MRC
...[Yamaha NU1 has] an infuriating quirk: all of a sudden one note will sound much louder than it should......

[the] instruction manual state[s] that this is normal "but only very seldom occurs."


Normal! According to the instructions! Is this a joke?

Last edited by toddy; 12/08/15 07:45 AM.

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Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
toddy #2488799 12/08/15 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
. . .

Normal! According to the instructions! Is this a joke?


PMFJI (I had to check this!) --

From the NU1 English user's manual, p. 31:

Quote
Problem:

When playing the same key repeatedly and quickly or playing a trill continuously for a long time, a sound louder than expected (considering your playing strength) might very occasionally occur.

Possible Cause and Solution:

This might be caused by the mechanical structure of the keys and the action; this is normal, but only very seldom occurs.


So they released the DP with a known, rather serious bug. They claim it's "mechanical", but I'll bet it's in the firmware. Ouch!


. Charles
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PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
Charles Cohen #2488814 12/08/15 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen

So they released the DP with a known, rather serious bug. They claim it's "mechanical", but I'll bet it's in the firmware. Ouch!


That's exactly the point: mechanical fault or software bug? It's difficult to see how it could be mechanical. And if it is mechanical, is it part of the mechanism of an acoustic? ie, does the upright that this is based on also exhibit this behaviour? And even if it does, would you want to emulate it in a premium quality digital hybrid piano?

You wouldn't have thought so, would you? Especially as MRC, who owns an NU1, says above that this rules it out as a performance instrument, but adds that it's fine for practice....Talk about damning with faint praise!


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
faulhorn #2488839 12/08/15 02:14 PM
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Yes, the existence of this NU1 bug is irritating. But to be fair, my Nord Electro 3HP also has (VERY rarely though) an annoying loud note in between. I guess that's down to the polyphony algorithm being at its limits, and I also guess someone in an audience will think that I just hit that particular key in that particular moment too strongly (if noticing the phenomenon it at all). And my Yamaha P155 (which I use in another place for practicing) has the rare occasional silent note (the key just doesn't sound when hit). Again, a discerning listener would think it's me who missed the key.

These things are computers, and a certain - hopefully minimal - number of dropouts/errors is probably only avoidable at high cost.

No such things at all (for the time being at least) on my acoustic... smile

Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
toddy #2488841 12/08/15 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
[That's exactly the point: mechanical fault or software bug? It's difficult to see how it could be mechanical. And if it is mechanical, is it part of the mechanism of an acoustic? ie, does the upright that this is based on also exhibit this behaviour? And even if it does, would you want to emulate it in a premium quality digital hybrid piano?

I've spent quite a lot of time trying to track down the cause of this. It's elusive, but I think it arises as a result of the particularities of an upright action coupled with the way the optical sensors work. An upright action is never as good as a grand for trills and fast repeated notes because it has simple escapement, as opposed to the double escapement of a grand. In certain situations when a note is played before the key has returned to its rest position, the hammer speed and resulting volume can be unpredictable. It seems that somehow the system of optical sensors magnifies the problem.



Steinway A grand (1919), Richard Lipp grand (1913), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Kawai ES-100 (2019)
Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
faulhorn #2489400 12/10/15 10:39 AM
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Let me know if I got this wrong...
But, I personally would suggest a Clavinova for your digital...and a Korg for the synth.


Sean T. Preston
Pianist
Re: Best Digital Piano - Touch & Tone? (Cost no object)
maurus #2490049 12/12/15 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by maurus
Originally Posted by faulhorn
1. The space is too large for an acoustic piano (can seat 800) so the sound for its intended purposes will always be through the house PA. The piano will also be playing alongside a band often so another reason that we need amplification.


In my first reply I wasn't aware of this - in such a large setting I'd go with what Sam Bennett (PianoWorksATL) and Morodiene have said. Either set up an acoustic well, with the help of professional service, or look for the best STAGE solution you can get, here the MP11 is as good as it gets.

And to repeat: With respect to sound quality for the audience, the amplification chain/PA system is a hugely important factor. The best digital or mic'ed sound can be destroyed by a bad PA. Perhaps you need to invest on that side of the equation.


Really important to understand the difference. A V Piano is a stage piano. A V Piano Grand looks like a small grand piano and has speakers. It costs a lot more, too.

First two images refer...

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=roland+v+piano

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