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Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: bobrunyan] #2479960
11/12/15 11:04 PM
11/12/15 11:04 PM
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Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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You have to have 2 pairs of identical octaves and 4 pairs of CM3's for it to work. Otherwise, you are wasting your time and fooling yourself. Jeff ignores this point where he tries to prove that CM3's are not accurate. He is right. The way he thinks of them is not accurate at all.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
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Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: bobrunyan] #2479981
11/13/15 12:08 AM
11/13/15 12:08 AM
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Ben Lomond, CA
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bobrunyan Offline OP
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Jeff's test and the empirical testing that Mark has done both seem like good ways to see if one can tune accurate CM3s. Rafael has provided an interesting way of doing Jeff's test. I wonder why you are arguing with each other?

The thread was not about whether CM3s are a valid way to tune or about whether one can tune them accurately. The thread I started was about a tuning sequence that I think has merit. That sequence diverges from other sequences after the CM3s are established, so that's what I'd like to get some more feedback on. I also wanted some feedback on the spreadsheet I developed that can be used to see how different sequences work with pianos with different inharmonicity numbers (see link earlier in the thread).

Thanks for all who have commented.

Last edited by bobrunyan; 11/13/15 12:10 AM.

Bob Runyan
Ben Lomond, CA
PTG Associate Member
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: bobrunyan] #2480054
11/13/15 08:00 AM
11/13/15 08:00 AM
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Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
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All:

First, Mark, you owe Rafael an apology for name calling.

Bob, you make a good point about the the real subject of your Topic. What do you do after the initial set of CM3s is tuned? You have what you believe is a new way and are looking for input. My challenge is about whether you can do what you propose with how initial CM3s are actually tuned. Hence my challenge. It it is something I surely cannot do, and so I am honestly curious how well others can.

As far as your spreadsheet, Bob, and the pscale iH curves, you really need to pick off the individual values from the curves to see which is more reliable when M3s are progressive: P4s or P5s. Entering an upper and lower value and assuming the values are linear is not going far enough in your studies.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: UnrightTooner] #2480110
11/13/15 10:58 AM
11/13/15 10:58 AM
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Ben Lomond, CA
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner


As far as your spreadsheet, Bob, and the pscale iH curves, you really need to pick off the individual values from the curves to see which is more reliable when M3s are progressive: P4s or P5s. Entering an upper and lower value and assuming the values are linear is not going far enough in your studies.


Jeff, I responded to that earlier in this thread. I looked at all the individual values for all of the pianos on the Pscale site. When the inharmonicity values in the temperament octave were not close to linear, I entered them in my spreadsheet to see how things worked out. Please see my earlier response.


Bob Runyan
Ben Lomond, CA
PTG Associate Member
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: bobrunyan] #2480315
11/13/15 06:43 PM
11/13/15 06:43 PM
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Jeff,

It is true. Not everyone has the sensitivity to tune CM3 as accurately as needed. That's why other methods may produce better results for them. In the end, we need to hear down to 3% anyway if we want to test progressive M3/M6.

Why do you say you can't hear to tune CM3 accurately? Have you tried my test? I want to change it up so the answer is not the same all the time. If you don't know the answer, you can try it and see how well you can set the C#4 so that the CM3's are progressive and change by the same %.

It is at http://howtotunepianos.com/beat-speed-difference-ratio-test/




Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: bobrunyan] #2480753
11/14/15 11:23 PM
11/14/15 11:23 PM
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Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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2 pairs of identical octaves: A3-A4 and F3-F4 and 4 sets of 4:5 ascending (or descending) M3's. No ifs, ands or buts.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2481554
11/17/15 09:18 AM
11/17/15 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Jeff,

It is true. Not everyone has the sensitivity to tune CM3 as accurately as needed. That's why other methods may produce better results for them. In the end, we need to hear down to 3% anyway if we want to test progressive M3/M6.

Why do you say you can't hear to tune CM3 accurately? Have you tried my test? I want to change it up so the answer is not the same all the time. If you don't know the answer, you can try it and see how well you can set the C#4 so that the CM3's are progressive and change by the same %.

It is at http://howtotunepianos.com/beat-speed-difference-ratio-test/




First things first. You still owe Rafael an apology for name calling:

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Another opportunity for the Great One to malign and belittle. There is no end to his insipid attacks. Swing away Gadzuks, swing away.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #2481558
11/17/15 09:22 AM
11/17/15 09:22 AM
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Bradford County, PA
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
2 pairs of identical octaves: A3-A4 and F3-F4 and 4 sets of 4:5 ascending (or descending) M3's. No ifs, ands or buts.


But how often is this actually done, and just how accurately?

There are plenty of schemes out there, but not much proof.

I am still waiting for someone to try the challenge: Tune 2 ladders of CM3s two semitones apart independently from each other. (No listening to the first set while tuning the second set) then see if all the resulting M3s are progressive. Some of the fine folks here have programs they can run to see if the M3s are truly progressive if you post an audio recording.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: UnrightTooner] #2481835
11/18/15 01:03 AM
11/18/15 01:03 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,502
Vancouver, Canada
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
2 pairs of identical octaves: A3-A4 and F3-F4 and 4 sets of 4:5 ascending (or descending) M3's. No ifs, ands or buts.


But how often is this actually done, and just how accurately?

There are plenty of schemes out there, but not much proof.

I am still waiting for someone to try the challenge: Tune 2 ladders of CM3s two semitones apart independently from each other. (No listening to the first set while tuning the second set) then see if all the resulting M3s are progressive. Some of the fine folks here have programs they can run to see if the M3s are truly progressive if you post an audio recording.

I tried it but failed, no need to post audio as I'm one of those "fine folks" anyways, thanks for the complementary adjective.

Raphael said he will do it, so we wait for that.

How about yourself, can you do it? (Above the break of course.)

I think this is an excellent self-test. When I was studying for the PTG test I practiced the two methods (semi-Marpurg and up M3 up M3 down P5) Bill Bremmer has on his website. Both are based on getting the inital contiguous M3's right. I found that if I got the initial M3 set (F3A3C#3F4A4) right the rest was easy, but getting the contiguous set of M3's was error-prone, and no method to detect errors in that initial set was provided, so any errors in there will propagate.

Kees


Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: bobrunyan] #2481944
11/18/15 09:09 AM
11/18/15 09:09 AM
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Bradford County, PA
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Thanks for giving it a try, Kees. I have tried my challenge with all four CM3s and even posted the abysmal results quite a while ago.

I'd love to have a top notch philosopher/mathematician look at ET sequences in general. Sometimes I think we miss the forest for the trees.

Take CM3s for instance. It sounds great. Just divide up the octaves in thirds and go from there. But how accurate can that be done and where do you actually go from there? Not to mention what size octaves and whether they should be the same size.

OK, then divide up the octave into 4ths and 5ths and if you don't come out right, make adjustments. But what is the correct relationship between the 4ths and 5ths and how many times do you have to go back and forth?

Can we somehow combine these two basic methods? Well, yes. Any M3 can be either formed or divided with 2-4ths and 2-5ths. Or two CM3s that are two semitones apart can be formed or divided with 1-4th and 1-5th. This last device is the basis of BBs excellent ET via Marpurg and also Bob's sequence in this Topic. And once two such ladders are formed, they can be checked against each other for progression.

And there is a way to check the accuracy of a single CM3 ladder. It be checked by tuning pure SBIs to all the notes and checking the progression of the resulting m3s and M6s.

But let's not forget the old accuracy vs precision dilemma especially when tuning extra notes just to confirm previously tuned ones: Who is to say that even a pure 5th is really pure? And why tune a whole bunch of extra notes, anyway, which again is a basis for Bob's sequence in this Topic?

Of course I am leaving the effects of iH and scaling jumps completely out of this.

OK, considering that regardless of the sequence, there will be adjustments necessary to previously tuned notes, are there universal tests and corrections for identifying errors? I think there are. Mr. Kent Swafford goes into detail about this in his "Every which way" method.

There is a particular relationship of P4s and M3s that I use for refining. Take a P4 and listen to the M3s that are within it: P4,G#3-C#4 has M3,G#s-C4 and M3,A3-C#4 within it. Can the G#3 and C#4 be moved so that the chromatic M3s are progressive and also the right speed? I won't go into detail what to do if things are wrong because it depends on how you got there.

The reason I mention it is because of it usefulness in any sequence, large or small.

There is a particularly interesting philosophical/mathematical consideration. What is the smallest number of notes that can be tuned that provide enough self checks to ensure that ET will be the result when expanding the temperament? I keep coming up with 9, but it is simply by observation.

There is an intriguing one with 8 notes, all within a P5. I played around with it in my head and on my simulator this morning and I think someone has mentioned something like it here a number of times. It requires tuning M3s directly, though, which I detest. Going into details would be best with a fresh Topic as to respect Bob's sequence.

[Edit:] Never mind, the 8 note mini-temperament within a 5th is a bust unless you are into m3s, in which case you could probably do it within a P4 with 6 notes. frown



Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #2481945
11/18/15 09:09 AM
11/18/15 09:09 AM
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Madison, WI USA
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
2 pairs of identical octaves: A3-A4 and F3-F4 and 4 sets of 4:5 ascending (or descending) M3's. No ifs, ands or buts.


The above is self correcting. It's all in the video and in writing. If you don't follow the directions, you can't expect the correct results, no matter what it is you are trying to do. I wonder why it is that it works perfectly for me every time as it does for the many successful students I have taught and the countless numbers of people who write to me, thanking me for a clear and easy to follow procedure but on here, I get people who say something else?

Try following the directions next time.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #2481952
11/18/15 09:26 AM
11/18/15 09:26 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,943
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
2 pairs of identical octaves: A3-A4 and F3-F4 and 4 sets of 4:5 ascending (or descending) M3's. No ifs, ands or buts.


The above is self correcting. It's all in the video and in writing. If you don't follow the directions, you can't expect the correct results, no matter what it is you are trying to do. I wonder why it is that it works perfectly for me every time as it does for the many successful students I have taught and the countless numbers of people who write to me, thanking me for a clear and easy to follow procedure but on here, I get people who say something else?

Try following the directions next time.


Bill, can you try the challenge instead of giving anecdotes?

Last edited by UnrightTooner; 11/18/15 09:27 AM.

Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: bobrunyan] #2482046
11/18/15 01:40 PM
11/18/15 01:40 PM
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Madison, WI USA
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What you are talking about has no validity to it at all and sorry to say, neither does Mark's idea. You have to have,2 pairs of identical sized octaves, F3-F4 and A3-A4. When you have that, the CM3's will fit properly every time with no guessing and actually, very little skill involved.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #2482060
11/18/15 02:21 PM
11/18/15 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
What you are talking about has no validity to it at all and sorry to say, neither does Mark's idea. You have to have,2 pairs of identical sized octaves, F3-F4 and A3-A4. When you have that, the CM3's will fit properly every time with no guessing and actually, very little skill involved.


Perhaps you don't understand the discussion, then. ???


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: UnrightTooner] #2482224
11/18/15 10:42 PM
11/18/15 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
There is a particularly interesting philosophical/mathematical consideration. What is the smallest number of notes that can be tuned that provide enough self checks to ensure that ET will be the result when expanding the temperament? I keep coming up with 9, but it is simply by observation.

At the danger of derailing the discussion away from the test, could you explain why 9? First of all it depends on what you call "ET". If we stick with the idea of progressive M3/M6 I would think the smallest number would be 21 so you can check progressiveness of M3's and M6's on top of F3 to E4.

Kees

Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #2482230
11/18/15 10:58 PM
11/18/15 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
What you are talking about has no validity to it at all and sorry to say, neither does Mark's idea. You have to have,2 pairs of identical sized octaves, F3-F4 and A3-A4. When you have that, the CM3's will fit properly every time with no guessing and actually, very little skill involved.

What I did was the following. First of all I decided all my octaves will be 4:2 and I checked this with the usual test.

I then tuned A3 from A4 and guessed F3. Then tuned F4 to F3. Then I moved C#4 around trying to get F3A3-A3C#4-C#4F4-F4A4 increasing smoothly. It seemed F3A3 was too slow so I lowered F3 and retuned F4. Then I fitted C#4 again and the 4 contiguous M3's sounded ok.

Next I tuned B3 as follows. I tuned F#3 as beatless P5 from C#4 and E4 as beatless P5 from A3. Then I tuned B3 so that F#3B3 and B3E4 were equal beating.

Next I tuned B4 as 4:2 octave from B3.

Then I guessed G3 and tune G4 from it as 4:2 octave. I then repeated the procedure started on A3 to achieve what sounded to me like the correctly progressing beat rates of G3B3-B3D#4-D#4G4-G4B4.

When done I recorded the M3's on F3G3A3B3C#4D#4F4G4 and they turned out to be not progressive. So I didn't get it right.

I think my main problem was the fast bps of F4A4 and worse G4B4 which I find hard to hear.

Perhaps I should have chosen D#3 as the bottom note of the other set of CM3's, maybe I'll try that.

Kees

Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: DoelKees] #2482346
11/19/15 08:35 AM
11/19/15 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
There is a particularly interesting philosophical/mathematical consideration. What is the smallest number of notes that can be tuned that provide enough self checks to ensure that ET will be the result when expanding the temperament? I keep coming up with 9, but it is simply by observation.

At the danger of derailing the discussion away from the test, could you explain why 9? First of all it depends on what you call "ET". If we stick with the idea of progressive M3/M6 I would think the smallest number would be 21 so you can check progressiveness of M3's and M6's on top of F3 to E4.

Kees


I'll start a new Topic.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: bobrunyan] #2483964
11/24/15 09:34 AM
11/24/15 09:34 AM
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Well, until I see someone complete the challenge, I have to assume that the accuracy of CM3s are not as advertised.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: bobrunyan] #2484251
11/25/15 01:55 AM
11/25/15 01:55 AM
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Hi Bob, in your original post you mention in step 3 to check the G#3-C#4 and the A3-E4 fourths, don't you mean the A3-D4 fourth or has someone already pointed this out?


muso, part time tech.
Re: Better Equal Temperament Sequence? [Re: UnrightTooner] #2484266
11/25/15 03:48 AM
11/25/15 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Well, until I see someone complete the challenge, I have to assume that the accuracy of CM3s are not as advertised.


Jeff,

I'll soon be tuning my Ibach upright for our summer (just waiting for the humidity to come in and stabilize). So I'd love to take the challenge. However, I have two problems:
1) F3 is the highest wound bichord, and mismatched (of ALL partials!) at the 5th partial. I never know which of the two strings to use for my temperament.
2) I don't claim CM3s to be highly accurate. In fact, I'm one of those sods who has problems getting them evenly progressive. So I wouldn't expect to pass the challenge anyway.


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
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