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Re: A Yamaha CLP575 review [Re: Dwscamel] #2371553
01/09/15 09:46 AM
01/09/15 09:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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dewster  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by Dwscamel
I've read this comment from you several times on PW. I'm genuinely curious -- how can you spot the looping so well? I always check for it when I see your post, but I can never catch it in recordings of the DP. I'm not being aggressive or sarcastic, etc., I really mean it: what do you listen for?

Valid question. I suppose I've heard so many DPs looping that my ear has been trained to some degree. James has a point in that looping is usually easier to see (via the Adobe Audition 3.0 spectral views) than hear, and a lot of what I do when evaluating the DPBSD is "directed" listening. For some notes, the timber and stereo placement of the loop is matched well enough to the attack sample, and the loop period is either long enough or the loop sound drab enough, that I find it difficult or impossible to directly hear the looping for that note.

That said I can't say I've encountered a looper where I couldn't clearly hear at least some of the notes looping (and the DPBSD only tests the C notes). And even if such a DP existed, where one couldn't hear any of the loops directly, the way loops are generally done these days (short, drab samples) the overall tone is rendered much less interesting sounding vs. a fully sampled piano, and you might still hear the loops beating together in decaying chords.

Look what I just bought, a 64GB USB3 thumbdrive for $25 USD. Why are people shelling out $5k for loopers again? Someone pointed to a a video of Billy Joel's stage rack where it is shown that he uses a Receptor running Ivory II, a second Receptor as fail safe backup, and a Kurzweil PC2R rack as the third and final fail safe backup. Even the "Piano Man" himself doesn't play a looper on stage unless everything else is broken and he is basically forced to.

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Re: A Yamaha CLP575 review [Re: enzo.sandrolini] #2371606
01/09/15 12:03 PM
01/09/15 12:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 860
Poland
K
kapelli Offline
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 860
Poland
In fact looping is easy to hear. What is the most surprising for me, is, that they are spending hundreds of hours and money on damaging the samples, while having amazing sounding samples, they could do something WOW. but they will not do this, because it would sound to good, and, Yamaha can't do that.

Whats is even more fascinating, that in the time when KAwai since few years are getting better and better samples, 88 keys slong samples, and best Keyboard, Roland improving a lot their sound and touch, Yamaha still is marketing the same thing since 20 years, with almost no hearable changes...

And having them sampled streched should be a big no, especially for Clavinova series.

Re: A Yamaha CLP575 review [Re: kapelli] #2371615
01/09/15 12:35 PM
01/09/15 12:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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dewster  Offline
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Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by kapelli
In fact looping is easy to hear. What is the most surprising for me, is, that they are spending hundreds of hours and money on damaging the samples, while having amazing sounding samples, they could do something WOW. but they will not do this, because it would sound to good, and, Yamaha can't do that.

If they were doing MP3 compression I'd sort of get it. Stretching, looping, and too few velocity layers are not the way to compress the samples of something as delicate as an acoustic piano.

It's my belief that they won't give us a mid or low end unlooped DP because it would "internally compete" with their own higher end products. Flagship things like the AG don't get updated often so everything on down is stuck in a time warp. Merely admitting that their high end stuff loops puts it in a very bad light, so they can't even talk about it. So what do we get? Technological stasis - and in a time when all other heavily computationally based consumer devices are quite obviously improving by leaps and bounds.

It's gotten to the point where DP technology can't pass the smell test. Everyone who looks into them knows they are paying too much for too little. Everyone who really cares about sound quality ends up jacking into a PC sampler and bypassing the lame internal sounds.

Originally Posted by kapelli
And having them sampled streched should be a big no, especially for Clavinova series.

Stretching any DP that isn't a toy is just nuts at this point. That's why they don't talk about that either. It's no wonder they don't give hard specs anymore, they would be an embarrassment.

Re: A Yamaha CLP575 review [Re: kapelli] #2371636
01/09/15 01:40 PM
01/09/15 01:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 6
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jpyt Offline
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by kapelli
Yamaha still is marketing the same thing since 20 years, with almost no hearable changes...

You are wrong. This thread is about Yamaha CLP575 - the DP that:
* Has two completely new sets of samples (from Yamaha CFX and Bosendorfer piano). Yamaha is the only one DP's producer that offer two sets of samples at the moment.
* Both samples are not stretched.
* With VRM technologii they improved string resonance and implemented in very nice way string and damper sympathetic resonance.

All of those are very well hearable changes.

We can expect much more from modern DPs but it's hard to say that Yamaha has changed nothing sync 1995.

Last edited by jpyt; 01/09/15 01:49 PM.
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Re: A Yamaha CLP575 review [Re: dewster] #2371646
01/09/15 02:00 PM
01/09/15 02:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,746
Vancouver, B.C.
Vid Offline
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Vid  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,746
Vancouver, B.C.
Originally Posted by dewster
It's gotten to the point where DP technology can't pass the smell test. Everyone who looks into them knows they are paying too much for too little. Everyone who really cares about sound quality ends up jacking into a PC sampler and bypassing the lame internal sounds.


This is the main reason I couldn't bring myself to invest the big bucks into an N1 or NU1.


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Re: A Yamaha CLP575 review [Re: enzo.sandrolini] #2371652
01/09/15 02:11 PM
01/09/15 02:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by jpyt
We can expect much more from modern DPs but it's hard to say that Yamaha hasn't changed nothing sync 1995.

The Bosendorfer sample is most likely brand new to Yamaha DPs, but the CFX sample has been around for a while I think? The CP1/5/50 have two separate AP samples (CFIII and S6).

Lack of stretching isn't absolutely new for them, the CLP-990 (introduced in 2001) and AG-N3 aren't stretched. Pedal sympathetic resonance on the AG-N3 is pretty good, and the CLP-990 has key sympathetic resonance as well - both of these are pre VRM (though perhaps VRM is an improvement?).

Yamaha is kind of notorious for bandying the term "modeling" about on things that don't belong in that category IMO (e.g. "Spectral Component Modeling" in the CP1 made everyone think the APs were at least partially modeled, it took DPBSD testing to dispel that myth).

I'm not sure why Yamaha didn't just keep making the CLP-990 and be done with it. It would greatly benefit from a larger sample memory (as would virtually all DPs) but in almost all other ways everything they've made since up until now has been a step backward.

Re: A Yamaha CLP575 review [Re: jpyt] #2371661
01/09/15 02:38 PM
01/09/15 02:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,331
Europe
JoeT Offline
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,331
Europe
Originally Posted by jpyt
Yamaha is the only one DP's producer that offer two sets of samples at the moment.

The $800 ES100 has two sets of AP samples, too. They are both based on Kawai grands of course. Although the second sample set is obviously stretched (with about 22 stretch groups I guess, I don't counted them), only the primary set provides 88 note sampling, but that's still a nice thing to have in a sub $1000 instrument.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
Re: A Yamaha CLP575 review [Re: enzo.sandrolini] #2371749
01/09/15 07:06 PM
01/09/15 07:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,019
Sydney, Australia
S
sullivang Online blank
3000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Online Blank
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S

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,019
Sydney, Australia
I listened to a few demo clips - sounds very nice indeed. It might be interesting if they could produce a hybrid preset that uses the mellow Bosendorfer samples for the soft samples, morphing to the bright CFX samples for forte.

Greg.


Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
Re: A Yamaha CLP575 review [Re: theoak] #2483030
11/21/15 01:03 PM
11/21/15 01:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 64
France
E
emmaco Offline
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E

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 64
France
Originally Posted by theoak
The difference between the 575 and the 585 is retail $1300 US. For $1300 you get:

20W more and a 6 speaker system


Yes, but the more important, except the power, the counterweight and XG voices, is the fact than the speakers are 3-way speakers...(2-way for the CLP-575) And it changes a lot when you're in front of the piano and you're playing it ... No doubt.

I played both of them, and as we say in french "Y'a pas photo"... wink


Motif XS 7 - Mac everywhere... since 1984... ;-)
Fender Strato - Logic Studio - NS-10 M Studio
acoustic upright piano

http://perso.numericable.fr/appleback/index.html
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