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Problems with Repetition #2479214
11/10/15 06:21 PM
11/10/15 06:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2
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ferdlz Offline OP
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ferdlz  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2
Hi,

Since a few days I have a new silent Piano and I noticed problems with fast repetitions:

Looking at the action I noticed two things:
1. The let-off is very large (about 6-7mm), which is definitely attributed to the muting function. (But I think it could still be reduced to about 5mm)
2. The "lost-motion" of the jack is absolutely zero. If releasing a key very slowly the jack only partly moves back under the hammer butt. Only if I quickly release the key the jack fully moves to its original position.

My questions are:
Can the problems with fast repetitions be reduced by regulation of the action by a technician?
Or could it even cease once I played the piano a lot?
Or is it the sort of problem I need to live with, when having a silent piano?


Br,
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Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2479240
11/10/15 06:59 PM
11/10/15 06:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,413
Québec, Canada
accordeur Offline
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accordeur  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,413
Québec, Canada
Lost motion is needed. Pull back on the hammer rail, if the hammers stay put. you need more lost motion.

A new piano needs prep. Could also need key easing etc... If prep was not done...

Call your dealer or tech.

Last edited by accordeur; 11/10/15 07:01 PM.

Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2479245
11/10/15 07:10 PM
11/10/15 07:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 218
Janesville WI
Lucas Brookins RPT Offline
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Lucas Brookins RPT  Offline
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Janesville WI
You don't want lost motion. If the let off is too early, then the jack comes way too far out from the hammer butt. Then it has to travel further to get back under the hammer butt. Too much aftertouch. Have a technician do some regulation.


Lucas Brookins, RPT
Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2479258
11/10/15 07:52 PM
11/10/15 07:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,413
Québec, Canada
accordeur Offline
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accordeur  Offline
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Québec, Canada
The least possible amount of lost motion for sure. But it is still needed.

I am assuming you have an upright? The let-off being wider because it has a silent system requires all other parameters of regulation to be exact.

Call your tech.


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2479355
11/11/15 04:33 AM
11/11/15 04:33 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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France
Play it enough , let off and after touch can be regulated tighter but it still need to be large.



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2479395
11/11/15 09:25 AM
11/11/15 09:25 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
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Lowell MA
Upright or Grand ?


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Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2479410
11/11/15 10:47 AM
11/11/15 10:47 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 248
J
Just Steven Offline
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Originally Posted by ferdlz

Can the problems with fast repetitions be reduced by regulation of the action by a technician?

Sure
Originally Posted by ferdlz


could it even cease once I played the piano a lot?


no
Originally Posted by ferdlz

is it the sort of problem I need to live with, when having a silent piano?

unnecessary

I assume you are talking about playing fast repeated notes. You do realize you can't do this well on vertical piano, don't you?


Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2479427
11/11/15 12:27 PM
11/11/15 12:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 218
Janesville WI
Lucas Brookins RPT Offline
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Lucas Brookins RPT  Offline
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Actually with verticals, you can get good repetition, but it needs to be regulated properly.


Lucas Brookins, RPT
Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2479446
11/11/15 01:22 PM
11/11/15 01:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Yes a good vertical action can have very good staccato repetition a little less with legato.

Different parameters, but the main one is jacks to butt space.

With the silent pianos, that space is always large, the spring is much compressed and it helps due to the large let off. 5mm is not easy to attain, as the shank need to rebound on the rubber of the rail to give adequate sensations regulating the letoff just at the rail distance gives a hard impact. And typewriter noise. 2mm from the rubber is the measure if memory serves. (there is a label with distances at the left of the case)

The Yamaha front punching ANd backchecks wire are supple/springy. This need to be taken in account when regulating.
Anyway one need to play with a lightened arm those actions, you cannot really use the bottom of the key as precise reference as it is mushy.

Last point, the voicing is left powerful and bright. If you regulate the action normally (without silent then) you need to voice, and often to change key dip and checking.

Last edited by Olek; 11/11/15 01:26 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2479448
11/11/15 01:31 PM
11/11/15 01:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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France
PS with silent pianos, let off need to be checked regularly. As it tend to reduce in time, as soon the shank is rubbing on the stop rail, the skin of the butt takes the extra effort, and compress. After some time a ridge develops which can really put repetition sick (the corner of the Jack catches in the skin and accelerates the hammer early)

Pps : I regulate most verticals so the "air margin" between Jack top and butt is only due to the suppleness of skin

The jack goes back to rest slowly but clearly.
When I pull on the rest rail the hammers don't move, or really very little.
That immediateness of transmission is advantageous when playing, and does not perturb repetition if the keys are leaded and free.
The "play" can be regulated by feel as the kind of sensation at the beginning of the key dip is strongly related to that play

If immediateness cause trouble, a very minimal amount can be used as long no "hole" is felt at the beginning of the key dip, but a smooth resistance, very early (due to the compressing of the butt and the one of the different cloths in the path of the levers.

Last edited by Olek; 11/11/15 02:20 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: Olek] #2479875
11/12/15 04:49 PM
11/12/15 04:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2
F
ferdlz Offline OP
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ferdlz  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2
Hi,

The piano is a brand-new Kawai upright piano.

My dealer told me, it's normal that on an upright you always need to completely release a key to press it again.

While it's obvious to me that this is true for slow repetitions, I wonder, if in fast repetitions the jack shouldn't move back faster than the hammer and thus get back under the butt before the key is fully released.

In the meantime I noticed that for some keys, after fully releasing very slowly, the jack does not move back under the hammer butt at all, so that no tone will be produced at the next key press.

Last edited by ferdlz; 11/12/15 04:49 PM.
Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2479908
11/12/15 06:42 PM
11/12/15 06:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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O

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
the jack should go back even if a little slow

the capstan need to be screwed a little, may be 1 8 turn

Last edited by Olek; 11/12/15 06:43 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2479914
11/12/15 07:04 PM
11/12/15 07:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 218
Janesville WI
Lucas Brookins RPT Offline
Full Member
Lucas Brookins RPT  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 218
Janesville WI
Make sure the jack pinning isn't tight. I have ran into a few tight jacks on new kawais.


Lucas Brookins, RPT
Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2479932
11/12/15 08:28 PM
11/12/15 08:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,178
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,178
Seattle, WA USA
Lost motion and/or sluggish jack, and/or whippen flange, and/or sluggish key bushing.

Or really messed up key weight balance.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
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Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2480195
11/13/15 01:52 PM
11/13/15 01:52 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 319
Philippines
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electone2007 Offline
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Joined: Jul 2008
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Philippines
Quote
If releasing a key very slowly the jack only partly moves back under the hammer butt. Only if I quickly release the key the jack fully moves to its original position.



The permanent ideal fix would be to regulate the action to get some lost motion.

As a temporary fix, you can try shimming the soft pedal rod so that it pushes just a little bit more on the hammer rail. This will move the hammer rail to push on all the hammers just a little bit. This in turn will lift the hammer butt and make space for the jack to reset.

I'm not a tech, so if this suggestion is ill-advised please disregard it. Just wanted to help.

Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2480223
11/13/15 02:42 PM
11/13/15 02:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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O

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Soft pedal trick can help, but it is better to regulate the capstan on the keys of course.
At the pedal,first suppress the lost motion at the back of the pedal lever then may be 1-2 mm cardboard not more to push the hammer rest rail 1mm. Just temporarily.

Or open the piano cover and see where the moving part of the hammer rest rail is supported. Tape a 1 mm small piece of cardboard on the existing felt.
EasierEasier than messing with the pedal and the rail will be prop evenly all along.
Lost motion I agree as long it cannot be felt. No spongy feel at the begin of key motion, we have control on the action (almost) immediately.

Now in much changing climates the lost motion is a guarantee against humid days, when the back cloth ~under the back of the keys ~ thicken because of high air moisture

Last edited by Olek; 11/13/15 02:48 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Problems with Repetition [Re: ferdlz] #2480760
11/14/15 11:50 PM
11/14/15 11:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,016
Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,016
Madison, WI USA
New vertical pianos of almost any make often have a short blow distance to allow for compression of soft materials. This will mean that with no lost motion, the jack may trip back excessively. That will inhibit fast repetition.

I have often maintained that a vertical action can repeat as fast (or nearly so) as a grand and it is true if precisely regulated. However, that precise regulation must be maintained more often than in a grand to get that fast repetition.

When very optimally regulated, the vertical action jack will "pop" back under the hammer butt as soon as pressure on the key is released, allowing for the very same kind of repetition as in a grand.

Unfortunately, this is often not the case, especially in newer pianos. The blow distance is deliberately set short so the jack trips out far from the hammer butt. The jack cannot return so quickly, so what the dealer said is true. You have to let the key return to the full position before repetition can occur.

This is to allow for the natural compression of the back rail cloth, the hammer rest rail cloth and the hammer butt material to compress over time. The regulation of the action is often ignored, so the repetition actually improves as the action is broken in. Some lost motion occurs but then it is taken up naturally as the materials compress.

If therefore, you want faster repetition in a newer piano, you will have to have a technician who understands that to allow for some lost motion in the action, just enough for the jack to not trip out so far and to maintain the precise amount as the action is broken in over time. It may mean also that the back checks need to be adjusted slightly to compensate but if so, they may need to be adjusted back later on when the action is further broken in. Maybe so, maybe not. It just depends on how reliably the action repeats.

The clue to the technician will be where the hammers fall into check, the dampers still lift properly and the precise amount of after touch is maintained during the breaking in period. The effect to the player will be minimal: that of having the soft pedal slightly engaged.

For most players, this is not a problem but for those sensitive to rapid repetition, the technician needs to adjust capstans at each tuning appointment for optimum after touch (and repetition).

Last edited by Bill Bremmer RPT; 11/15/15 12:06 AM. Reason: added comments

Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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