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Staccato with pedal down #2479212
11/10/15 06:20 PM
11/10/15 06:20 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,502
Vancouver, Canada
DoelKees Offline OP

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DoelKees  Offline OP

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I found a youtube Steinway masterclass where it was claimed you can get different sounds with the sustain pedal down by playing with a legato or staccato "touch". I think this is impossible and I didn't hear any difference in the demonstration. Can anyone hear which is played with legato and which with staccato touch in the mp3 below?

http://persianney.com/misc/steinwayLegatoStaccato.mp3

Kees

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Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: DoelKees] #2479217
11/10/15 06:23 PM
11/10/15 06:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 48
Saskatchewan, Canada
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jkellner1 Offline
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To me, the first was clearly legato and the second was staccato.


_________________________________
John Kellner
Pilot, pianist & want-to-be tuner
Hailun 180 Vienna Grand
Saskatoon, Canada
Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: jkellner1] #2479228
11/10/15 06:44 PM
11/10/15 06:44 PM
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Montreal
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pyropaul Offline
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The second one was clearly quite a bit louder than the first - thus maybe more likely staccato ... but there was no real difference.

Paul.

Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: DoelKees] #2479232
11/10/15 06:50 PM
11/10/15 06:50 PM
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Posts: 2,362
London
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chopin_r_us Offline
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
I found a youtube Steinway masterclass where it was claimed you can get different sounds with the sustain pedal down by playing with a legato or staccato "touch".
Basically you can't.

Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: DoelKees] #2479234
11/10/15 06:52 PM
11/10/15 06:52 PM
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Saskatchewan, Canada
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jkellner1 Offline
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I believe I can hear a difference in the attack.

Yes, the second set may be a bit louder, but the attack is definitely different.

[Edited for spelling]

Last edited by jkellner1; 11/10/15 06:52 PM.

_________________________________
John Kellner
Pilot, pianist & want-to-be tuner
Hailun 180 Vienna Grand
Saskatoon, Canada
Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: DoelKees] #2479235
11/10/15 06:54 PM
11/10/15 06:54 PM
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Posts: 2,362
London
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chopin_r_us Offline
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Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: jkellner1] #2479236
11/10/15 06:54 PM
11/10/15 06:54 PM
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Montreal
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pyropaul Offline
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Originally Posted by jkellner1
I believe I can hear a difference in the attack.

Yes, the second set may be a bit louder, but the attack is definitely different.

[Edited for spelling]


If it's louder (which it is) then of course the attack will be different surely?!

Paul.

Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: chopin_r_us] #2479243
11/10/15 07:09 PM
11/10/15 07:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 48
Saskatchewan, Canada
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jkellner1 Offline
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Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Originally Posted by DoelKees
I found a youtube Steinway masterclass where it was claimed you can get different sounds with the sustain pedal down by playing with a legato or staccato "touch".
Basically you can't.


Dear chopin_r_u,

Of course you can! I just went to my piano, depressed the sustain pedal and did the following:

1) Played five notes, loudly but with a legato touch, and

2) Played the same five notes, softly but with a staccato touch.

There was clearly a difference in the sound (volume aside). The first five notes were louder because I played them louder. It was in the attack, the subtlety of the touch which resulted in a different tone or colour (having a problem finding the right word(s) to describe it, so I'll use tone & colour).


_________________________________
John Kellner
Pilot, pianist & want-to-be tuner
Hailun 180 Vienna Grand
Saskatoon, Canada
Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: DoelKees] #2479287
11/10/15 09:23 PM
11/10/15 09:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
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USA
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machineintel Offline
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the second arpeggio passage is slightly louder, but there is otherwise no tonal difference. anyway, either the piano is poorly regulated or the pianist's control is somewhat lacking because there is significant volume variation within each individual passage.

Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: DoelKees] #2479307
11/10/15 11:00 PM
11/10/15 11:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Southwestern Ontario
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prout Offline
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Of course it is not possible, as Kees states. Given an equal final velocity of the hammer, the aural results will be the same, regardless of whether the finger is maintained on the key or released immediately after letoff.

Anyone who thinks differently is likely influenced by 'confirmation bias'. We hear what we want to hear. Obviously a double-blind experiment using a mechanical striker would be required to remove any bias.

Pilots (I am one) are taught and repeatedly reminded of the various CFIT traps that commonly occur in the course of day-to-day operations. This audio excerpt is an example - fortunately, without the disastrous outcome. laugh

Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: DoelKees] #2479317
11/11/15 12:07 AM
11/11/15 12:07 AM
Joined: Aug 2012
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Bosendorff Offline
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100% placebo.

And don't call me Shirley.

Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: jkellner1] #2479342
11/11/15 02:39 AM
11/11/15 02:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,362
London
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chopin_r_us Offline
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Originally Posted by jkellner1

There was clearly a difference in the sound (volume aside). The first five notes were louder because I played them louder.
You miss the point. The 'effect' is proposed on sounds of the same dynamic. Hopefully you've read the later comments.

Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: DoelKees] #2479352
11/11/15 03:57 AM
11/11/15 03:57 AM
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joe80 Offline
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Also let's take a look at the meaning of the words:

Staccato means 'detached'

Legato means 'bound'

Since the pedal binds the sounds together, the notion that any pedalled passage will be staccato is flawed. Yes, you can change the attack, the volume or whatever, but it's not staccato.

I know that legato requires a good judgment of the relationship between the notes (as does staccato, as does all playing), and there is more to it than the sounds merely overlapping.

Perhaps it's a question of nomenclature - perhaps we need a new name for that kind of playing. Portato or Portamento which basically means carried out or carrying out is more accurate, perhaps?

Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: DoelKees] #2479461
11/11/15 02:07 PM
11/11/15 02:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 195
Florida Panhandle, USA
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look_alive Offline
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"Portato". I love it!


1986 Kawai GE-2 (5'7")
Casio PX-100 DP
Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: DoelKees] #2479470
11/11/15 03:04 PM
11/11/15 03:04 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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France
There is normally a little difference due to the fact that the whole scale is free, so the impact of the hammer moves the soundboard more easily. there is a better dissipation of energy, not so fast as with a weak soundboard without Downbearing, bu there is less saturation during the attack, probably more strings are resonating and helping the high pitched partials to flow and stabilize.

That it could be heard on a recording, even of good quality, is less evident.
sustain pedal is down, is cleaned, any hardness is delayed, that is why the dealers use a lot the sustain pedal smile

Now I totally agree that real staccato is not really done with the sustain pedal fully engaged, eventually with a very fast move of the dampers on eah note or some notes

Real staccato use the key and action inertia ,as well as the elasticity of the front punching and the one of the key, depending of the power wanted. The pedal can be used to lengthen the staccato, still sound staccato, but as the pedal is released shortly it can be used to emphasize a note, for instance?


Last edited by Olek; 11/11/15 03:19 PM.

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Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: look_alive] #2479472
11/11/15 03:06 PM
11/11/15 03:06 PM
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BDB Offline
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Is that pronounced "por-tay-toe" or "por-tah-toe"?


Semipro Tech
Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: DoelKees] #2479473
11/11/15 03:08 PM
11/11/15 03:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,362
London
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chopin_r_us Offline
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You fail to understand the proposition Olek - with the pedal down, with the same dynamic, can withdrawing the finger sooner make an audible difference.

Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: DoelKees] #2479480
11/11/15 03:31 PM
11/11/15 03:31 PM
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Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Stacato is a shortened impact, pedal or no, it cannot be done with legato touch

I think it use the noise of the key more than any other touch


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: Olek] #2479483
11/11/15 03:41 PM
11/11/15 03:41 PM
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Posts: 2,362
London
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chopin_r_us Offline
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Originally Posted by Olek
Stacato is a shortened impact, pedal or no,
For real?

Re: Staccato with pedal down [Re: BDB] #2479494
11/11/15 04:19 PM
11/11/15 04:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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France
Originally Posted by BDB
Is that pronounced "por-tay-toe" or "por-tah-toe"?


Portamento ? is similar, or "louré" in French, use a light staccato touch without releasing the key totally , that certainly can be done with a staccato touch and the sustain pedal I think


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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