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Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
#2469298 10/12/15 01:16 PM
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Kawai VPC1 is £933 here in UK and £983 from thomann in Germany

I have seen quite a few of our American friends saying the VPC1 is approx $1800 in the USA which is approx £1200 - why is it more in the USA ?

But I have also seen other models that are cheaper in the USA but more expensive here

Is it genuinely explained away by different rates of VAT and tax or is there an element of over pricing taking place - especially with niche models that serve a specific purpose ?

I am not attacking kawai specifically I am simply using the VPC1 as an example and I know kawai make excellent pianos

Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Edb123 #2469299 10/12/15 01:18 PM
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Why is it more in the USA, you ask? Because people will pay it, I guess.

A thing is worth exactly what someone will pay. Perhaps that's why movie DVDs cost $20 here, but only $5 in Brazil.

Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Edb123 #2469301 10/12/15 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Edb123
Kawai VPC1 is £933 here in UK and £983 from thomann in Germany

I have seen quite a few of our American friends saying the VPC1 is approx $1800 in the USA which is approx £1200 - why is it more in the USA ?

But I have also seen other models that are cheaper in the USA but more expensive here

Is it genuinely explained away by different rates of VAT and tax or is there an element of over pricing taking place - especially with niche models that serve a specific purpose ?

I am not attacking kawai specifically I am simply using the VPC1 as an example and I know kawai make excellent pianos

Well that would go some way to explain the success of the daredevils who demand 30% off an inflated price.

Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Edb123 #2469304 10/12/15 01:27 PM
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Is the same thing happening with acoustic pianos with over inflated prices which as dire tonic has said allows dealers to say yeah u can have 30% off ?

I mean if they give u 30% off then surely the original price is an absolute rip off

Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Edb123 #2469311 10/12/15 01:33 PM
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I'm sure the factors to explain this are the following:

Import duties play a large part. (anywhere between 5-30% depending on region)

Currency that the distributor is buying THEIR inventory in, against the currency of the manufacturer. This will have a dramatic effect on the landed cost to the distributor. And this can vary wildly week to week.

Profit margin for the distributor to stay profitable and frankly, open for business. This needs to pay all the employees of the distributor, facilities, cover warranty, and a raft of other costs.

Then a profit margin that allows your favourite retailer to keep the lights on, the doors open, service their customers, pay their staff and hopefully take home a salary.

I don't think you can equate a direct currency conversion as a pricing metric. Corporate tax structures and overhead are so completely different country to country, and even regions within a country. As are import duties, transportation costs, and hundreds of other factors.

No one is trying to rob you, the end user....

We all just want to keep building great gear that you folks hopefully want to buy. We want to be gainfully employed, feed our families, and hopefully put a little something away for retirement. We want our retailers to be open for a long time, selling our gear and helping you make music...

Jay



Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
JayGVan #2469318 10/12/15 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay Roland
No one is trying to rob you, the end user....

Resale (or Retail) Price Maintenance.

Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Edb123 #2469320 10/12/15 01:48 PM
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So, you take a well reasoned reply, borne of years of experience in the MI industry, and boil it down to that?

Sorry man, I won't take the bait.

Jay



Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
JayGVan #2469322 10/12/15 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay Roland
So, you take a well reasoned reply, borne of years of experience in the MI industry, and boil it down to that?

Sorry man, I won't take the bait.

Jay


It wasn't intended as bait. I though you'd be bright enough to understand the implication that RPM is anticompetitive.

Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Edb123 #2469350 10/12/15 03:22 PM
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Is it possible for someone in the U.S. to order a piano from a european website and just have it shipped to U.S.?

Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Edb123 #2469356 10/12/15 03:38 PM
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Hey andal,

The shipping costs and duties would probably eat up any savings...

Plus you most likely wouldn't have a valid warranty.

Voltage (220V vs. 110V) could be an issue as well.

Jay



Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Edb123 #2469418 10/12/15 07:07 PM
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Yamaha's pricing is exactly the opposite of Kawai's: cheap in America, expensive in Europe. Don't understand that either.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
JayGVan #2469427 10/12/15 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay Roland
I don't think you can equate a direct currency conversion as a pricing metric. Corporate tax structures and overhead are so completely different country to country, and even regions within a country. As are import duties, transportation costs, and hundreds of other factors.

No one is trying to rob you, the end user....


I think this is pretty much it, but also keep in mind that if someone feels they can rob you they absolutely will. In Australia you get used to paying around 30% more for things AFTER the price difference.

There's really nothing you can do about it when the distribution is locked down pretty well, but it's worth being aware of. It's quite common for people to buy goods from overseas and pay huge fees for shipping and import taxes and still come out ahead from local distributors here. The best thing you can do as a consumer is search for the best deal for yourself, the more people that do that the more pressure it puts on the exploitative practises to be competitive.

Yesterday I went to a local book store to by a book and was given a price of $77 AUD to get it in for me. It's on the american amazon store for #30.88 USD ($42 AUD). Now that extra $30 may well be needed to keep that local retailer in business, they're not intentionally taking advantage of me. But if I buy it for $77 locally I'm essentially giving to a charity and supporting a uncompetitive and outdated business model. Now that may mean the poor local retailer will have to go and work at a supermarket, and that's kinda sad, but that's also a reality of capitalism.

Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Edb123 #2469429 10/12/15 07:52 PM
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Jay nailed it. wink


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
AndrewJCW #2469476 10/12/15 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AndrewJCW
Originally Posted by Jay Roland
I don't think you can equate a direct currency conversion as a pricing metric. Corporate tax structures and overhead are so completely different country to country, and even regions within a country. As are import duties, transportation costs, and hundreds of other factors.

No one is trying to rob you, the end user....


I think this is pretty much it, but also keep in mind that if someone feels they can rob you they absolutely will. In Australia you get used to paying around 30% more for things AFTER the price difference.

There's really nothing you can do about it when the distribution is locked down pretty well, but it's worth being aware of. It's quite common for people to buy goods from overseas and pay huge fees for shipping and import taxes and still come out ahead from local distributors here. The best thing you can do as a consumer is search for the best deal for yourself, the more people that do that the more pressure it puts on the exploitative practises to be competitive.

Yesterday I went to a local book store to by a book and was given a price of $77 AUD to get it in for me. It's on the american amazon store for #30.88 USD ($42 AUD). Now that extra $30 may well be needed to keep that local retailer in business, they're not intentionally taking advantage of me. But if I buy it for $77 locally I'm essentially giving to a charity and supporting a uncompetitive and outdated business model. Now that may mean the poor local retailer will have to go and work at a supermarket, and that's kinda sad, but that's also a reality of capitalism.


If that retailer was a LMS he would probably been out of buiseness for some time now... Its happening all over.. And now everyone on the WWW is complaining that they cant find any LMS near their home where they can try out the instruments before they buy them...


I dont think not having local shops with local jobs is a luxury we can afford us..

Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Edb123 #2469491 10/13/15 12:20 AM
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Yes it was a local music shop. They typically have a massive mark up over online prices. The last town I was in lost their only music shop, and it is a blow to the local community for sure. A town of about 15,000 without a single shop in town that will sell you a guitar or keyboard.

The only thing sadder is expecting consumers to waste money propping up outdated business models.

Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Kawai James #2469702 10/13/15 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Jay nailed it. wink


Haha yeah the guy who works for kawai agrees with the guy who works for Roland

I agree with JoeT and it's easy to compare prices between the UK/EUROPE and the USA via the Internet - Yamaha is definitely cheaper in the USA and from what I have seen Kawai is more expensive in the USA

I have on a few occasions looked at www.trademe.co.nz - the kiwi equivalent of eBay - and some of the prices for digital pianos/keyboards is an absolute rip off

For people in smaller markets such as Australia and New Zealand it may well be better to order from another country and still save against local prices

Quite often u can see on eBay.com that a keyboard/piano cannot be shipped to the UK - is this the manufacturers way of telling the retailer not to sell to people in the UK ?

In another thread people are talking about getting up to 40% off a new DP - if a dealer agrees to that then it's quite obvious the original price is a rip off

Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Edb123 #2469707 10/13/15 01:41 PM
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Rolands are manufactured in Japan but they also produce their DPs in California as well. So this gives one pause. Why are the prices so significantly different then say the UK. Can't blame import tariffs if made here. Then again Yamahas are supposedly cheaper here and they're made in Japan. Roland doesn't allow internet pricing of their line in the US so the retailors are free to inflate their prices accordingly because there's little competition. What more, they won't allow buyers to purchase an instrument in a State where they do not live giving more latitude for price gouging. I just hate buying something and at the same time knowing I'm being ripped off.

Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Edb123 #2469712 10/13/15 02:14 PM
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Just so we're all working with the correct information.

Roland Digital Pianos are designed in Japan, and the manufacture for the world occurs at our new Factory in Indonesia.

This has been the case since the previous series.

They were manufactured for a short time in the USA, but that is no longer the case.

Jay


Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Edb123 #2469725 10/13/15 02:48 PM
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I did find it very strange why there was so few Roland dp's for sale from retailers on www.ebay.com as opposed to www.ebay.co.uk where lots of retailers are selling Roland dp's

We can all look on the net at prices in other countries

I bought my Roland F20 from a Roland dealer and it was the same price from all the other retailers on eBay as well as Internet companies


Re: Digital pianos - price differences between UK/EUROPE and USA
Edb123 #2469727 10/13/15 02:49 PM
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I stand corrected. That being said isn't it fair to say that manufacturing cost are significantly cheaper in Indonesia than say Japan or the US? While I do believe Roland makes a great product and continues to do so, I wish they would allow competitive forces to make prices fairer to the general public in the US.

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