2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
72 registered members (Beemer, BachToTheFuture, AYS, aph123, 36251, anotherscott, amyram, accordeur, 18 invisible), 444 guests, and 561 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: Brahms88] #2468967 10/11/15 01:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10,435
MacMacMac Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10,435
I don't see the point of this.
Originally Posted by Brahms88
STORE A offers a $1000 DP at 29% off street price, whilst STORE B offers the same model at the $1000 street price without any advertised discount (0% off).
Negotiating 30% off of list is a best or near-best situation. So it doesn't seem likely that you'll find a store offering 30% off (except perhaps in a fire-sale or GOOB sale).

Anyway, the pianos that I'd consider are not advertised. It seems that prices cannot be advertised by edict of the manufacturer. I'm speaking of the mid- to high-end console pianos, those sold at piano dealers rather than at music stores like Sam Ash. (This applies in the US, perhaps in Canada, but I cannot say how the game is played elsewhere.)

So the dealers cannot advertise any special deals. It seems they cannot even talk price over the phone.

You have to negotiate your own deal.

(ad) ROLAND

Click Here

Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: Brahms88] #2468970 10/11/15 02:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,209
M
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,209
Originally Posted by Brahms88
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Brahms88
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I don't understand what difference it makes whether a product is advertised at 25% off. If I wish to pay 30% off, then that's my offer ... advertisement or not.


Hmm. Please answer this hypothetical:

STORE A offers a $1000 DP at 29% off street price, whilst STORE B offers the same model at the $1000 street price without any advertised discount (0% off).

If your goal is to achieve a 30% discount, would you first shop at STORE A or STORE B, other things being equal?



I'd first go to store A and offer them 30% off. If they wouldn't take it then I'd got to store B and tell them stare A offered 29% off, but wouldn't do 30%, and I'd go with them if they'd give me 30%. smile


Good answer. However, you'd face a quandary if STORE B said that it would match the 29%, but won't go to 30%.


Not a quandary, but in the end you make a decision: is it really worth waiting and not having the instrument you want for the difference between 29 and 30%? If you're talking about a $3000 instrument, you're talking the difference of $30. You could ask them to throw in free delivery or a book or something.


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2468971 10/11/15 02:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10,435
MacMacMac Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10,435
Plus ... you can offer to pay cash/check instead of credit card, and get an additional 2.5% off just for the asking. smile

Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MacMacMac] #2468977 10/11/15 02:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,209
M
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,209
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Plus ... you can offer to pay cash/check instead of credit card, and get an additional 2.5% off just for the asking. smile


Yup! Nothing talks quite like cash smile


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MacMacMac] #2468981 10/11/15 02:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 106
Brahms88 Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Negotiating 30% off of list is a best or near-best situation. So it doesn't seem likely that you'll find a store offering 30% off (except perhaps in a fire-sale or GOOB sale).


In your earlier post, you stated "30% [is] quite possible," but now you're saying that "it doesn't seem likely that you'll find a store offering 30% off."

These two statements are inconsistent.


Casio PX-5S
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MacMacMac] #2468986 10/11/15 03:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 106
Brahms88 Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
...The pianos that I'd consider are not advertised. It seems that prices cannot be advertised by edict of the manufacturer. I'm speaking of the mid- to high-end console pianos, those sold at piano dealers rather than at music stores like Sam Ash. (This applies in the US, perhaps in Canada, but I cannot say how the game is played elsewhere.)

So the dealers cannot advertise any special deals. It seems they cannot even talk price over the phone.

You have to negotiate your own deal.


Earlier, you stressed that "I make my own discount. The quoted or advertised price doesn't matter. My price ... my offer ... is what matters."

OK, since you "make your own discount" and your price, your offer "is what matters," then one must assume that you're willing to travel endlessly from store to store until your price and your offer are ultimately and finally accepted by a dealer?

Since your dealers won't talk price over the phone, you have no choice but to keep driving from dealer to dealer until one of them accepts your offer.

That's certainly one approach to buying a DP.



Casio PX-5S
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2468994 10/11/15 03:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10,435
MacMacMac Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10,435
Not true, on both points.

There's a big difference between a dealer offering a 30% discount (unlikely) and a buyer (me) asking for it. The difference is in who is making the offer. Expect a dealer to offer a small discount, so a 30% offer is unlikely. But expect me to ask for a big one, and 30% is practically a given.

As for endlessly shopping ... nope. I bought this piano at the first dealer I visited. I knew what I wanted. I made an offer (one-third off list). And I bought it. As I suggested earlier, sweetening the deal with cash COD rather than credit card made the offer more attractive to the dealer. In the end, I spent more time trying out the piano than I did closing the deal.

It's not about hoping for a discount.
It's not about begging for a good deal.

It's about making a firm offer. And I only make one offer.

Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MacMacMac] #2469187 10/12/15 06:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 106
Brahms88 Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
It's not about hoping for a discount.
It's not about begging for a good deal.

It's about making a firm offer. And I only make one offer.


Congratulations.

I doubt if your one-time experience with making one offer to one dealer will be replicated on a large-scale for others visiting this forum.


Casio PX-5S
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: Brahms88] #2469204 10/12/15 07:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,209
M
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,209
Originally Posted by Brahms88
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
It's not about hoping for a discount.
It's not about begging for a good deal.

It's about making a firm offer. And I only make one offer.


Congratulations.

I doubt if your one-time experience with making one offer to one dealer will be replicated on a large-scale for others visiting this forum.


I'm not really understanding why you are so contentious about this. We are all here offering our personal experiences and opinions to help the OP (who I think has probably disappeared now due to the way things have turned sour in this thread).

I don't see the need for the condescending tone, and honestly, it really lowers the quality of the forum as a whole. If you have an issue with someone personally, take it to PMs and leave it out of the thread, please.


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2469223 10/12/15 09:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10,435
MacMacMac Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10,435
I was thinking the same thing.
It's as though Brahms does not want people to be successful in this sort of thing.

Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2469275 10/12/15 11:17 AM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 216
B
bill5 Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 216
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Not true. Wrong attitude.
And either misleading or outright faulty information to boot. I don't know about the UK, but almost nothing is sold at or near full retail price in America. 30-40% off of retail is about the MINIMUM discount you can and should expect to pay for a keyboard.

Please note this is however NOT the same as getting an ADDITIONAL % off of the advertised asking price (ie not retail). In that case, yeah, I doubt you will get much if anything extra off, generally.

Edit: that said, I suspect there is a diff between chain stores like GC and mom n pop stores. I'd think the latter would be more willing as they need the business more.

Last edited by bill5; 10/12/15 11:24 AM.
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2469283 10/12/15 11:31 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10,435
MacMacMac Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10,435
True, products normally sell below list because the latter is an artifice.
But 30% to 40% off is the minimum reduction? Seems fishy.

100% markup on cost is typical for many retail product lines. That is, 50% off list is the dealer's cost. (Caveat: The percentages vary depending on the line of merchandise. From food to clothing to TVs to furniture ... to pianos, I'd expect these figures to vary.)

I don't know what the figures are for pianos. But I've never seen such large gaps (30-40%) between list price and selling price.

Have you actually purchased a piano at 40% off list? If so, tell us where. I'd travel to get such a deal.

Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2469294 10/12/15 12:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,109
D
dire tonic Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,109
Maybe my message got lost in translation. I can only speak for the UK where to " buy at the beginning of a product's life" is - depending on the item - to be lucky to even find stock. Be assured, when the product hits the outlets, there are plenty of folk who just want to get hold of it and are impatient enough and flush enough to pay the price. The length of the queue will depend on the item, the scale of manufacture and the fever of the demand. Make a derisory offer - expect to be laughed out of the showroom.

Like I said, I can't speak for anywhere other than the uk and, in this specific instance, for the VPC1 and items like it at the 'beginning of their life'. Maybe Yamaha are capable of flooding the market with its clavinovas. In which case, for something which strikes me as overpriced in the first place, with maybe less of a fanfare or consumer fever - sure, anything is possible.

Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2469300 10/12/15 12:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 919
H
Hendrik42 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
H
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 919
I have observed this -- when you buy at the very beginning of a products life, you pay (almost) full price -- here in Germany as well. Digital cameras, for example.

It is really about how long you want to wait for the right price. Three months in or so, when every shop has stock, you see discounts. Waiting three months for a DP that will not see a new model (from same vendor) for three years is no problem, I think.

Except if you have already waited for it to show up and want to start playing (with) the darn thing... Then you just "buy" this.

I did this with my lastest camera. It was announced, looked excellent. Then the reviews came in, above 80% on dpreview. It showed up in my local shop before Amazon had stock. I put it through paces, slept on it and then payed almost fully price the next day. It was worth every penny, still is. Such awesome photos. Sure, a few months later it was 10% down, but the photos I did in that time...

Last edited by Hendrik42; 10/12/15 12:22 PM.

Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2469663 10/13/15 11:01 AM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 216
B
bill5 Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 216
Originally Posted by MacMacMac

I don't know what the figures are for pianos. But I've never seen such large gaps (30-40%) between list price and selling price.
Apparently you haven't shopped in a long time. smile Google some keyboards, it's easy enough to see.

Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2469704 10/13/15 12:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10,435
MacMacMac Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10,435
Can you cite an example?

It's easy to see the offered selling prices. But where do you get the list prices?
From the retailer? frown Or from a reliable source?

I looked at pianobuyer.com and at some stores online, and I found this:
Code
Make/Model      Est.    List    % Diff  Source
-------------   ----    ----    ------  -----------------
Casio PX-860    1099    1499    26.6%   pb.com and online stores
Yamaha YDP142   1100    1499    26.6%   pb.com
Yamaha YDP162   1500    1999    25.0%   pb.com and online stores
Yamaha YDP162EP 1700    2499    32.0%   pb.com
Yamaha YDPS52   1350    2199    38.6%   pb.com and online stores
Yamaha YDP181   1700    2199    22.7%   pb.com and online stores

Kawai CN35ES    2699    3299    18.2%   pb.com
Kawai CA67ES    3555    4299    17.4%   pb.com
Kawai CA97ES    4755    5999    20.8%   pb.com
Kawai CS4EP     3082    3695    16.6%   pb.com
Kawai CS7EP     4536    5695    20.4%   pb.com
Kawai CS10EP    6355    8195    22.4%   pb.com
Roland HP-504   2599    2999    13.3%   pb.com
Roland HP-506   2999    3499    14.2%   pb.com
Roland HP-506EP 3699    4399    15.9%   pb.com
Roland HP-508   4299    4999    14.0%   pb.com
Roland HP-508EP 4899    5699    14.0%   pb.com
Roland LX-15e   6099    7399    17.6%   pb.com
Roland LX-15eEP 5999    7199    16.7%   pb.com
Yamaha CLP525   1700    2199    22.7%   pb.com
Yamaha CLP525EP 2000    2599    23.1%   pb.com
Yamaha CLP535   2200    3399    35.3%   pb.com
Yamaha CLP535EP 2600    2899    10.4%   pb.com
Yamaha CLP545   2900    3699    21.7%   pb.com
Yamaha CLP545EP 3400    4299    21.0%   pb.com
Yamaha CLP575   3900    4999    22.0%   pb.com
Yamaha CLP575EP 4500    5699    21.1%   pb.com
Yamaha CLP585   4900    6299    22.3%   pb.com
Yamaha CLP585EP 5500    6999    21.5%   pb.com
Yamaha NU1      5816    6499    10.5%   pb.com
Yamaha N1       8180    9999    18.2%   pb.com
Yamaha N2       12362   14999   17.6%   pb.com
So it seems the low-end goods are regularly marked down more heavily. Mid- to high-20% range is a gimme.

The high-end pianos are marked down less, mostly teens and low 20's. You have to make an effort to negotiate to get a better price.

Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Piano World 

What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our January 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
Free Piano Newsletter
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Free Trial
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Steinway fallboard lettering
by Lushey1 - 02/21/20 04:30 AM
How do you deal with sweaty hands?
by PracticingPianist - 02/21/20 01:34 AM
FP 90 Question...
by GWILLY - 02/21/20 12:27 AM
I am inspired to write some music
by MichaelJK - 02/20/20 10:51 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics197,098
Posts2,928,244
Members96,057
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3