Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Looking to buy a DP but need some advice guys.

Hey guys.

I tend to write too long stories so if you don't like reading it all i've summed it up at the bottom .

Going to make a thread that's probably been make a thousand times already but i have no choice really. The more i read other threads and look for information i can use the more confused i get haha.

It basically comes down to looking for advice. And i do know that "visiting a store and play them" is generally the best thing to do but that, right now, is not an option for me. So i turn to you guys. On this big global forum and hope your tips/knowledge can help me come to the right choice of DP for me.

So on to the matter at hand. Picking a DP. At first (a wile ago) i was death set on the Kawai CN25. I liked everything i read about it on here and other places and loved everything i saw on video's regarding it's sounds (not just kawai vids.). But then i start reading around. Look at what other options there are out there and i basically got lost. There is just sooo darn much information and choices.

So here i'm looking at my options. I can't do an acoustic as i live on the 10th floor and my neighbours would kill me haha. So a DP it is. At first i was looking only at the console version and fell in love with the CN25. But right now i've also come around to portable versions ever since i've seen the Yamaha P255. And i do have to admit that wile not liking portables at first i do right now like the idea that i can just take it somewhere (say Xmass family dinner or something) and be able to play there. Also i don't live in a huge house so being able to pack it up and set it aside for a day (Birthdays or other big parties) is an advantage.

Now i did mention the Yamaha P255 and that is also my budget unfortunately. I could go as high as 1400 maybe 1500 euro's on the DP. But i probably really can't go any higher. So i would really appreciate advice in that price range.

Now as to what's most important to me in the DP. I don't care about having a lot of sounds. I'll only play with the piano sounds anyway because i just don't have any interest is weird electronic sounds, organs, choirs etc. (personal opinion). But i do hope to be able to get something that feels as close to a real acoustic as possible so later on the transition from DP to acoustic isn't a huge leap. I would prefer build in speaks and if at all possible a nice sound out of it and high polyphony. Plus if possible being able to record on-board or trough connecting it to my pc would be a huge bonus.

So after a long, probably confusing, post i hope you guys aren't turned off by it yet and want to help me with your knowledge. I'll sum my "demands" up in short below for those that don't want to read the whole thing. Thanks a lot in advance guys and i'll try to keep a close eye on this thread and respond to anyone asap.

So to sum it up:
-Looking for a DP. Portable has preference but if a console makes really a huge difference then i'd like to know.
-I really do not care about other sounds/voices then the piano. Nor about rhythms.
-If possible i like it to feel as close to an acoustic as possible. So a transition to that later on is easier.
-Budget is about 1400 euro but could for a reason go up another 100.
-Build-in speakers preferred so i can play it anywhere.
-on-board recording a bonus. But like to be able to hook it up to a computer to record like that.

I completely forgot to mention why i want a DP. Because of unfortunate reasons i am fortunate (yep funny right) to spend all my time to be able to make a dream come true for me. And that is playing the piano. So i'm looking for a DP that i can use at home (and possible to with me as well) to study piano. With my preferences being classical music and Jazz. And some fun solo piano versions of modern music.

Ok enough writing. I hope you guys can help me here. Looking forward to all your responses.

It depends on what genre you are mostly going to play. Console has advantage for classical piano. Otherwise, slab is fine for almost everything especially if you're not looking for specific classical piano effects like coming off the keyboard very quickly, which has a different effect, and requires a keyboard that understands key-off velocity. Most slabs do not bother with that. For classical piano, you could end up playing very rigorously, so a very stable stand is required. The built-in stands are best. If you are starting now, you won't worry about this probably for several years, by then you might be shopping for another DP.

Forget about feeling close to acoustic at this price point. Just learn what you can then learn again to adjust to an acoustic if that ever happens. It's not bad, though a bit work is expected.

I would go with the P255 for the portability reasons you stated that's within your budget. I personally prefer the sound of the P155 more, but either is fine.

Hello Timothy, welcome to the forum.

Within your budget, I would suggest the following instruments (Thomann.de prices shown in brackets):

Portable DP with built-in speakers:
- Yamaha P-115 (€617)
- Yamaha P-255 (€1,399)
- Kawai ES100 (€645)
- Kawai ES8 (€1,490)
- Roland F-20 (€599)
- Roland FP-50 (€1,289)
- Roland FP-80 (€1,777)
- Casio PX-160 (€639)

Console DP:
- Yamaha YDP-142 (€740)
- Yamaha YDP-162 (€1,029)
- Yamaha CLP-525 (€1,299)
- Kawai CN14 (€849)
- Kawai CN25 (€1,299)
- Kawai CN35 (€1,545)
- Roland HP-504 (€1,499)
- Casio AP-260 (€789)
- Casio AP-460 (€985)
- Casio AP-650 (€1,279)

The above lists are not exhaustive, but should provide a good starting point. I would strongly recommend that you decide whether or not you require a portable instrument, and then take things from there. I am understandably biased, however I do not believe you will find a better portable instrument than the ES8, and while this instrument does offer a number of additional bells and whistles, it remains very much acoustic piano focussed.



That's rather unfortunate, because seeing, hearing, and playing the instrument for yourself is truly the only way to purchase a piano. Watching videos, reading reviews, and seeking advice from others online will only get you so far. May I ask, do you live in a remote area without any music stores/piano dealers nearby?

Best of luck with your search.

Kind regards,
James
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Thanks for the pointers 8 Octaves. I will probably play classical most of the time but i do like piano adaptions of anime/disney/movie/game music as well. But i never thought console dp's would have such an advantage over portables to be honest. Personally i always expected the consoles to be a portable with a wooden build around it and nothing more really. Guess i didn't know enough yet then . Thnx.



Thanks Kawai James for all those types. I'll look them all up for their specifications. And i don't mind it that your opinion is biased (actually expected it ). I always consider every opinion to be biased one way or another seeing as it's usually about personal taste and/or preferences.

As to your question. That's ok to ask. Couple years ago i injured my lower back in the Army. This it's called a herniated disk in English. That happened wile they did heavy cuts in our armed forces so i lost my job. Started eating (oh the dangers of comfort food) and i gain an extreme amount of weight. I am on the right path again now and i've lost a lot of weight already (from +_500lb to 360lb) but still to heavy for my back to be able to heal properly atm. Which will take more months of weight loss and training. Anyway to cut a long story short. That's why i, right now, can't walk or stand long enough to reach the stores. I don't live remote but i am depending on public transportation. So that's a bit why i can't go there.

I did find a great teacher willing to come to me for lessons. And in all honesty i'm not really getting younger haha. Being told by my GF to just chase my dream and having such amazing support i now started looking for a DP to learn on. Which in turn brought me here and to this thread .

Also Kawai James. A portable isn't a must. Bit it has nice bonus options like taking it with me for a big family Xmass dinner for example. And it saves on space. Though if a console is noticeably better i'd try to make extra space to be able to place it in.

Oh btw. 8 Octave. You mentioned that consoles are sturdier which is better for harder playing. But what about a double cross stand. Is that really noticeably weaker?

Thanks guys.

Timothy-NL
I prefer a table top stand like the On Stage KS7150. A Z-style stand is also better than a cross stand. I would mention that some of the portable pianos mentioned by kawai james have options for their own stands, some which come with a triple pedal built in (most digital pianos come with just a single sustain pedal)

James also mentioned the kawai ES8 as the best choice in his view, but that may be a bit outside of your price range, especially if you go with the option for the stand and built in pedals. The ES8 just came out recently, so you might be able to find a much better deal on its predecessor, the ES7 -- there may be vendors trying to get rid of their old ES7 stock and willing to make a bargain.

I would not worry about portable DPs and playing classical music. You may sacrifice a little in the speakers, but you can always buy nicer speakers and/or headphones to use with a portable DP when you're just at home. I don't think that will be an issue since you are just starting out, honestly.

Of James' list, I like the Kawai and the Casio options the best in your price range.

It's small things. If you pick up your hands slowly versus pushing off the keys as fast as possible, on a grand piano, it produces a different effect appropriate for different moments. DP do not do such a good job of it. However, Yamaha seems to support sending key-off velocity only in its consoles, even low-end consoles, but not in slabs. So even the YDP-142 would send key-off velocity while the more expensive P255 would not or even the expensive CP line. This to me is a genre driven feature choice by Yamaha. It's as if Yamaha did some study and decided classical players have one set of needs and non-classical players have another. Given a limited budget, they optimize the products differently. This applies specifically to Yamaha.

However, the Kawai VPC1 (slab) does support sending key-off velocity, but the Kawai CE220 (console) doesn't, but I suppose the VPC1 is a bit of a special case being a controller, so if you like slabs, I'd look carefully which one supports what feature before thinking they are all the same. Also, it would seem some DP supports half pedal but not continuous pedal, which is more important for classical music. Depending on your music perhaps 2 dozen levels odd to be more than enough. I'm learning a classical piece by Bernstein where my teacher is asking me to use just a touch of the pedal, less than quarter way down, maybe 1/8 down here and there. Some DP don't support these small pedal effects. They could do half / full / none only. To say the P115 or P255 is not suitable for classical music would be wrong. They are just not optimal for it, but it's still fine depending on how far you are along in your studies.



I only say the console are sturdier because it's a bit of a no brainer. You buy it, it comes one way, it works well at the right height. With slabs, you'll have to choose a good stand, which is perfectly fine, but people tend to go cheap, and before you know it, the piano drops on the floor while you're playing. I don't like cross stands at all. I like the kind that's like table legs with lots of room for my feet.

8 Octaves, all Kawai instruments with triple sensor keyboard actions send and correctly respond to variations in key-off velocity. I believe the only currently available models that do not are the CE220, KDP90, and ES100.

Kind regards,
James
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Thanks James! That's good to know.

Hey guys. First thanks for all the tips and advice. I've brought it down to 6 (yeah still a lot but less then before). I left Roland out for the simple reason that that's one brand i know absolutely nothing about when it comes to piano's. I only have experience with their drums.

Anyway. It's still a mix between portables and consoles. I figured that if it's a portable i'll look for a good stand after that. 3 pedals are a bonus but i think i don't need more then the sustain pedal for a wile and most are (i think) probably able to expand to a 3 pedal setup.

Now the models i am looking at right now are all about the same price range.

Casio Privia PX-860
Casio Celviano AP-650
Kawai CN-25
Kawai ES-7
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-525
Yamaha P-255

As you see. Of every brand there is a portable and console. Though the PX-860 i think was a portable that comes inc. stand, pedals and in my case bench as well. No idea how to seperate it from the stand though haha. But that all aside. Of these piano's. Which do you guys think have the best (=most realistic) feel when it comes to the action. I know this is a personal opinion for each individual but i'd still like your opinions. Keep in mind that my main focus will be on classical music and piano adaption of disney/anime/game music. Say 65% classical, 35% adaptions. And if possible i'd like to be able to play on it for a couple years. So i don't have to buy a new one within 1 or 2 years. I'm a pretty fast learner with way to much time to spend on learning as well so i'd like it to last for a bit .

Now i don't even know if my writing makes any sense really. But if it does i'd appreciate you guys's opinions .

Kawai ES7 for a mile ahead...

This may sound like beating around the bush to you, but not intended to. The Kawai action feel more like a Kawai acoustic piano while Yamaha feels more like a Yamaha acoustic. Before purchasing my Yamaha grand piano, I spent a lot of time test playing the Kawai RX3 and SK5, specifically. I also played the GE30 quite a bit a few years ago.

To me the Kawai DP action feels more like a Kawai than say a Steinway or Yamaha. Since I now have a Yamaha grand, I can definitely confirm the Yamaha DP feels more like a Yamaha acoustic and less like a Kawai acoustic. In reality DP do not feel very close to their acoustic counterpart enough for you to really worry. They still feel quite different despite advancements. Since you're just starting to learn, you have no established preference, so you'll have to go with your gut about it. The fact is, you will get used to whatever you have. The only critical part is 88 weighted velocity sensitive keys. The other details such as graded weight, linear graded weight, counter weight, wood versus plastic, they all count for something, but in the end, doesn't really matter if the question is "how close is it to a real grand piano?" So far, the answer is "not so close."

In other words, if a concert grand piano action from Yamaha is 10, its DP action depending on price would be around 3-6 for me. Similar range for Kawai. However if you compare Yamaha AP action to Kawai DP or Kawai AP action to Yamaha DP, then my perceptive score would go lower. In any case, you are not going to find a DP action that's like a 9 compared to the reference 10 of an concert AP. I wouldn't give a 9 even to my new Yamaha grand piano.

The important part is to realize you could learn on a DP, which speaks to the adaptability of the pianist rather than any innovation on the DP. I play an old DP with Yamaha AE action on the weekdays. It doesn't even have graded action. Every key has the same weight from 1-88. Doesn't really matter. I don't fall apart when I play my grand piano on the weekends. As a pianist, we should learn to adapt to more than one kind of action, and learn to play on more than just our piano at home. After almost 6 years of classical training from a classically trained teacher, those are my current opinions. Hope it helps.

Hello Timothy,



Thank you for sharing this personal history,Timothy. I did not wish to pry, but was rather wondering if you had already tried searching for piano dealers in your area, only to be unsuccessful.

Well, I'm sorry to hear about your back injury, and the unfortunate cycle of events that followed. However, it's positive to read that you're on the right path, and about to embark on an exciting new journey learning the piano!



The support of a good teacher is arguably just as important as that of a loved one, so I'm glad that you've found someone to guide your learning. I believe a lot of folks attempt to self-teach using method books and YouTube videos. This is certainly admirable, and a great way to expand one's knowledge, however I do not believe such unassisted learning can ever replace having a good teach sitting beside you providing advice and correcting your technique etc.



I agree with 8 Octaves to a certain extent, in that a console DP is arguably more solid than a portable. However, I believe this is less of a factor for the mid-high range portable models such as the FP-80, ES8, and P255. Provided you use a good quality stand (i.e. not a cheap 'included in the price' X-stand), there's nothing to say a portable cannot be just as strong. I think this video is a great example of a well built, portable (although admittedly heavy, due to the wooden keys) stage piano mounted on a secure, stable stand. The player is performing a very complicated piece, yet the instrument remains rock solid throughout.

Best of luck with your search for a DP, and new life learning the piano!

Kind regards,
James
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Hey guys. Thanks again for the responses. And James thanks for the video. Really some amazing playing what he does. And i do get your points.

So i've been thinking a bit. And i think that i'm going to go with a console after all. I do love the bonus of a portable but all in all i think it would be a lot more expensive in the end after buying a 3 pedal setup and a great stand which are pricey as far as i've seen so far. And i can honestly live without dragging my piano all over the place. They'll just have to come to me if they want to hear something (or i record it etc.)

So i was wondering something. Been talking with my girlfriend a bit. And i might (really might) be able to go a tad higher in the budget. And i was looking at the Kawai CA17 (1800 euro) which over here is only a bit more expensive then the CN25 (1200 euro) (and even less then the CN35 1550 euro). And i wonder if those couple hundred bucks really make a huge difference. I know it has the newer hi-xl sound and real wooden keys. But i don't know how big a difference those things (compared to the weighted) are and maybe other things i've missed. To ok the higher price. If you know what i mean.

Looking forward to your responses.

Good opening post, Timothy.

Indeed, every opening post should have your "summary" feature.

Timothy, I agonized several months deciding between a console and a portable.

I ultimately opted for the portable stage piano for precisely one reason: I determined that I would need to replace the piano every 5 years (wear & tear; obsolescence; etc.), and the speakers/amp and stand/pedals will last forever, so I can keep recycling those with each successive keyboard.

I'm very pleased that I opted for the portable stage piano.

Hey Brahms88. That would indeed be a great point for a portable. But after a lot of thinking these last days and reading/writing here on the forums i did come to one conclusion. We are going to buy a family house in the coming year (or 2). Aside from that one time moving (DP going on soft wheels so it doesn't get hard hits or needs to be carried for every meter) it won't move places. And when moved to that new house i'll probably save (and start for that after buying the DP) for an acoustic to eventually replace the DP with. At least that's the plan so far.

On the other hand though. If the console DP's and the portable DP's are about the same price anyway it wouldn't matter to much when buying another in the future which type it is. But that all might change. The budget i have now won't be there in 5 years tbh.

And if i do go for a portable, I'd have to go down a chuck in the price to keep it (inc. a stand etc.) around the same budget. So if i'd buy a console for 1500 i could only spend 1100/1200 for the portable. Know what i mean.. Actually starting to loose what i was trying to say so i hope i makes sense to you.

And maybe i didn't get what you where trying to say. But to me right this moment it feels like i'd have to lower the quality of the DP now (when buying with a stand and pedals etc.) to be able to buy a better one in 5 years.

I do really appreciate your advice though. And if you read this and think "wow he didn't get my point" then please elaborate

Timothy, if I were moving to a "family house" as you're intending to do, then I would likely lean toward a console which, in addition to being a musical instrument, would serve as a solid piece of furniture.

My point is simply this: my current keyboard will be obsolete in 5 years (as an outer limit) ... and will need to be replaced. Given this fact (over which I have no control), then I would rather "replace" a 25-lb slab (whilst retaining my speakers and stand) rather than "replace" a 100-lb console, together with its built-in speakers, etc. Moreover, I'd be able to rollover a much superior set of speakers and much more powerful amp ...

Win-win-win ! ! !

I stand behind what I said previously, which is it doesn't make that much difference plastic or wooden action. You will get used to whatever you get as long as it is weighted. You'll still learn fine. However, whether the RM3 action in the CA17 is worth a couple hundred more than the CN25 plastic action? Absolutely. For a primary instrument, the difference is worth the extra money because its feel nicer, which should help you want to practice. You are very lucky that is a choice for you as we don't have the CA17 this side of the ocean.

I always recommend folks purchase the best instrument that they can comfortably afford. Certainly, for many people a piano is a luxury, however if you're passionate about music, and playing the piano brings enjoyment to yourself and your loved ones, I believe the investment over the lifetime of the instrument can be justified.

The CN25, CN35, and CA17 are priced within a similar range, with a few hundred Euros separating each model. The CN25 is a basic but good quality plastic key instrument, with the CN35 offering the same keyboard and sound technology, with a range of additional features and an improved speakers. The CA17 is arguably closer to the CN25 in terms of additional features (although the sound quality and speaker system are superior), but incorporates a superb wooden key action. To be honest, as a beginner, I don't believe you can go far wrong with either of these instruments, and they will serve you well throughout your learning and development for a number of years.

If you have not done so already, please try the comparison function on Kawai Japan's 'Global' website for a side-by-side comparison and detailed explanation of the various digital piano models:

http://www.kawai-global.com/product_comparison/?c=36

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
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