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Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car #2466452 10/04/15 05:13 PM
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I've been wanting to buy a Roland Digital Piano for a few years now and several times have started down the path. I've known what model I wanted at the time - a Roland HP model current at that time - but when it came time to negotiate a price, it's been a difficult experience, ultimately leading me to just put off buying until some other time.

When buying a car, I can easily find out what's a fair price, and then it's generally easy to negotiate with a dealer to reach that fair price; usually the dealer will agree to it once they see that you've done your homework and are offering them a reasonable amount where they will still make a reasonable profit. When buying a DP, it's not so easy because pricing information is very lacking, customers are limited to nearby dealers, and dealers in my area haven't been the most cooperative with discussing or negotiating price.

I'm just looking to get a fair price, where I save some money and the dealer makes a reasonable profit. I'm not trying to 'squeeze every last penny' from the dealer; I just want them to be transparent in their dealings, not telling my lies like "Roland forbids us from selling piano's below the MAP cost". So instead, I'm unsure if I'm getting a fair deal or being taken for a ride, and then I decide not to buy.

Does anyone have any recommendations on how to successfully buy a DP at a fair price? Does anyone know what is a fair price for a Roland HP 605?

I'd love to be able to walk into a dealer, be offered a fair price, close the deal, and have a piano delivered to my house a couple weeks later.

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Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2466461 10/04/15 05:45 PM
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Check this (or do a search for the Roland model you're looking for on the Digital Piano forum:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1201029/DIGITAL_PIANO_%22PRICES_PAI.html#Post1201029

So check what people have paid.

But in general, you can expect to shave off some of the asking price from most dealers. In fact, it's best to determine what you are willing to pay for a digital piano first, and then find something close to that and negotiate to get there, within reason.


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Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2466478 10/04/15 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkF786
Does anyone have any recommendations on how to successfully buy a DP at a fair price? Does anyone know what is a fair price for a Roland HP 605?


If you search Piano Buyer, you'll find a SMP price for all pianos. The HP605 may be there or not if it's too new. I have discovered for my local area, the SMP price is about 25% over what the dealers are willing to sell. Your local area will be different but 15-30% off SMP is the range depending on how desperate the sales person is. So take the SMP, put an additional discount on it, and see what the dealers say. It helps to visit more than one dealer.

Pianos are not cars. There is a reason why certain things have easily accessible known competitive prices and certain things do not. All niched products have less transparent pricing. You may actually pay more from one store to another for any niche product or any luxury product. It is the way the market works. The sales people do this because they can. It allows them to make more money. The only way out of this is to not buy a luxury or niche product, which the piano is one.

There are definitely ways to not participate in this whole dealer game. You could simply choose to go with the Internet way of doing things where prices are essentially the same everywhere. Sure, the HP605 is not on the Internet, but once again, that is a niche luxury product. Buy something that is on the Internet instead. Once you are willing to pay more than $2000 for a DP, you've reached into that category where sales games will be played. If that paralyzes you from having a piano, just buy the best DP from your favorite brand over the Internet. Honestly, DP continue to change, and I seriously wonder if you're a very value driven person, how you would feel about the depreciation of a HP605 over 3-5 years.


Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2466481 10/04/15 06:46 PM
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Try pianobuyer.com

They publish a buyer guide. In the appendix they list every acoustic piano and every digital piano ... citing features and prices.

Looking at the list price, I would take off a third and make that my offer. I'd expect to settle at a price at least 25% and better yet 30% off of list.

If you'll need delivery, ask about delivery charges before making the offer.

And if the dealer's counteroffer is not acceptable, restate your original offer ... and sweeten the deal by offering to pay with cash instead of CC (which saves the dealer around $25 for each $1000 of the purchase price).

Negotiation is easy when time is on your side. And, from the history you've cited, you have plenty of time.

"Time is on my side. Yes it is."
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Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2466483 10/04/15 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkF786
I've been wanting to buy a Roland Digital Piano for a few years now and several times have started down the path.


Is the price the only reason for your 2-year delay? Stated otherwise, are you 100% satisfied with the product, with the only sticking point being the price? Perhaps you are also concerned with the changes (advancements) in technology during that 2-year period, and that's causing your delay in purchase?


Casio PX-5S
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: Brahms88] #2466550 10/05/15 01:04 AM
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Two years of waiting?

. . . How much is a day's worth of playing time worth, to you?

Multiply that by 700 -- that's your "foregone value" for delaying the purchase. Of course, the DP's may have improved over that time. If you think like that, you may _never_ buy one -- next year's DP will be better, eh?

There are some purchases where you just look around, find out what you can, and buy the thing _knowing_ that you might have gotten a better deal.

As with cars, the dealer sells a lot of them, and you only buy one every few years.

. . . Who do you think knows more negotiating tricks?

Forget "fair price" -- you have no way of knowing what that is. If you can't afford what the dealer wants to charge, you are free to say:

. . . 'Sorry, I can't afford that much'

and walk away (or buy the next-lower-priced DP).




. Charles
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PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2466574 10/05/15 03:27 AM
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Which country are you in? Here in Germany, the fair price for a new DP is very easy to establish: you look at what the three to five big shops want to have (via their websites). They will ship within about a week.

So for any local shop you just have to add the $$$ value you place on playing it first and then you have what I would call a fair price from the local shop.

No?


Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: Hendrik42] #2466589 10/05/15 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Hendrik42
Which country are you in? Here in Germany, the fair price for a new DP is very easy to establish: you look at what the three to five big shops want to have (via their websites). They will ship within about a week.

So for any local shop you just have to add the $$$ value you place on playing it first and then you have what I would call a fair price from the local shop.

No?


In general i can get it for 10% less then the big shops like thomann and musik store are asking... There is a lot of room to make a good deal when buying musicall instruments, even at Musik store when you visit their shop...

Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2466592 10/05/15 05:42 AM
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Ah, then of course, all is lost and there is no possibility to find a fair price.


Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2466602 10/05/15 06:26 AM
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If more than one dealer gives a certain price for an item, then that's the price for the item. Pay it, or buy something else. It is not true that you can get whatever low price you demand if only the salesperson were reasonable, and the same is true for cars. It's a negotiation, and every salesperson will be happy to let you know what the piano costs.


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Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2466661 10/05/15 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by MarkF786
I've been wanting to buy a Roland Digital Piano for a few years now and several times have started down the path. I've known what model I wanted at the time - a Roland HP model current at that time - but when it came time to negotiate a price, it's been a difficult experience, ultimately leading me to just put off buying until some other time.

When buying a car, I can easily find out what's a fair price, and then it's generally easy to negotiate with a dealer to reach that fair price; usually the dealer will agree to it once they see that you've done your homework and are offering them a reasonable amount where they will still make a reasonable profit. When buying a DP, it's not so easy because pricing information is very lacking, customers are limited to nearby dealers, and dealers in my area haven't been the most cooperative with discussing or negotiating price.

I'm just looking to get a fair price, where I save some money and the dealer makes a reasonable profit. I'm not trying to 'squeeze every last penny' from the dealer; I just want them to be transparent in their dealings, not telling my lies like "Roland forbids us from selling piano's below the MAP cost". So instead, I'm unsure if I'm getting a fair deal or being taken for a ride, and then I decide not to buy.

Does anyone have any recommendations on how to successfully buy a DP at a fair price? Does anyone know what is a fair price for a Roland HP 605?

I'd love to be able to walk into a dealer, be offered a fair price, close the deal, and have a piano delivered to my house a couple weeks later.


Maybe define "fair price." From your older postings it truly looks like you've been trying to solve this puzzle for two years, with various models of Roland. But unless I'm misreading, I see at one point you suggested that 30% off the MSRP was a fair price, you were able to get the price down to 32% at your local dealer, and you still didn't buy. Are you looking for significantly less than 30%? I haven't purchased a digital piano for a while, but I don't think the price ever budges much more than that. Sometimes you can get lucky and get a deal plus a manufacturer's rebate (Yamaha did that with their CP series) but that's a matter of luck and timing.

Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: 8 Octaves] #2466675 10/05/15 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Once you are willing to pay more than $2000 for a DP, you've reached into that category where sales games will be played.
? It's not limited to an upper range. Even if I'm only spending $500 on a DP, I would expect some kind of reduction, even if it's as little as $50.

It really is hard to tell what's "fair" though, as many of you have said. IMO you shop around, get the best offer you can, and be content with it. If you get that idea that there's always a better deal around the corner, you'll never buy.


Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2466679 10/05/15 10:58 AM
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The shops usually sell well below recommende retail price and the internet is the pace to check if you want best price. But I wouldnt expect more than 10% off the displayed price unless the machine had been a long time in there. .


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Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2466680 10/05/15 10:58 AM
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If you really want the "best deal", then look at used instruments in the private market, or look to buy a recently discontinued model or floor model/slightly used model from a dealer.

At some point, you have to buy something if you ever want to play. I'm not quite sure what the hesitation is. As Charles pointed out, 2 years of deliberating is a lot of piano playing time lost.


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Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: peterws] #2466693 10/05/15 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by peterws
The shops usually sell well below recommende retail price and the internet is the pace to check if you want best price. But I wouldnt expect more than 10% off the displayed price unless the machine had been a long time in there. .
I'm not talking about 10% off the MSRP. Almost nothing is sold at that price. It's just a gimmick so the stores can go "oooh look we're selling at X amount under MSRP!" I mean the advertised price, which is already well under MSRP.

PS: anyone else find it odd that the advertised price is almost always exactly the same from store to store (esp chains)?

Last edited by bill5; 10/05/15 11:22 AM.
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: bill5] #2466714 10/05/15 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bill5


PS: anyone else find it odd that the advertised price is almost always exactly the same from store to store (esp chains)?

This is often the case in the UK. The manufacturers suggest a price that the store advertises at, and suggest that ought to be the selling price too. Stores have the right to disregard this advice within their own profit margins, but then they may well lose the right to be an 'approved' distributor of the brand with the side benefits this may come with. I usually buy from a store, and on my last purchases got some goodies thrown in instead of a price reduction. In those cases my negotiation ended up about what those goodies would be rather than the price. This, err, price stabilisation does not usually apply to older models about to be replaced.

Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: bill5] #2466715 10/05/15 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bill5
Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Once you are willing to pay more than $2000 for a DP, you've reached into that category where sales games will be played.
? It's not limited to an upper range. Even if I'm only spending $500 on a DP, I would expect some kind of reduction, even if it's as little as $50.

It really is hard to tell what's "fair" though, as many of you have said. IMO you shop around, get the best offer you can, and be content with it. If you get that idea that there's always a better deal around the corner, you'll never buy.



Ah, but what I mean is for DP less $2000, generally, everybody sells them at exactly the same price because those are often available on the Internet like Kraftmusic, Guitar Center, so on and sales people do not bother to play games. If you're looking for a fair price, not necessarily the lowest price, there it is.

For instance, I recently tested a Kawai CE220 at a local store. The CE220 is generally available over the Internet. The sales person said this piano is available over the Internet, so he would simply match the price on the Internet at $1,899. That was a certainty. Easy, no negotiations. And because most Internet merchants will provide free shipping, for the CE220, the local store would also include free delivery. For the Kawai CA67, that was completely different, well, let's see, how about this number, that number... a completely different conversation from the CE220, and no free delivery. For the CA67, I'm not too sure what I would end up paying had I actually pressed for more discount and took out my checkbook.

Another example - the Yamaha YDP-162 for $1,299. These prices are well established no matter where you go in the US. At the Guitar Center, they brought up the Kraftmusic website on their computer and showed me that's the price I will be paying. I occasionally see this piano at the Yamaha piano store, and guess how much they sell it for? You've guessed it, $1,299. The power of the Internet! No more games.

Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2466737 10/05/15 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkF786

I'd love to be able to walk into a dealer, be offered a fair price, close the deal, and have a piano delivered to my house a couple weeks later.

When I want to buy something expensive - like a DP or a car - I walk in with an air of deliberation, and straightaway tell the salesperson that I want to buy today. grin

That always make them perk up, and throw everything at you, to get you to buy today. I then try out what I'm interested in (and take my time), and when I've made up my mind, I tell them I want to buy it if they offer me a good price. Almost invariably, they'll offer a discount. Then - if I'm happy with the price - I'll ask if they can add something else (in my case, a pair of excellent AKG headphones and music stand were thrown in). If the price isn't good enough, and they're not prepared to offer more, I say "I'll think about it" (read: 'I'll go somewhere else'). They'll bring the price down, because they know that once you walk out, you won't come back.

But you should also be reasonable - you can't expect a huge discount on a new model. But if a model is about to be replaced, you should haggle to the hilt.... grin

BTW, I travel widely, and use the same protocol when looking for bargains in all countries - allowing for cultural differences (and the fact that if the seller is obviously poor, I might just accept a token discount for cheap locally made stuff).


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: bennevis] #2466743 10/05/15 01:02 PM
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I agree. I actually go to the store and bring my checkbook and show it to the sales person. Since most people do not walk around with their checkbooks anymore, he knows you're serious when you show your checkbook. I always tell them I will buy today if given the right price, but I'm also not in a hurry, because I already have a working digital piano though 25-years-old but fully functional, so I want the right piano for the right price, not the wrong piano for the right price. Basically, it's a way to tell the sales person I am very serious but they have to work for the business.

I actually think buying a car is harder because between $30-$40K, I stand to lose as much as an entire DP if the price went up or down by 10%. For a $2500-$3500 DP, there is only so much money to be lost even if I struck a bad deal. At the end of the day, even if you over pay by $500, just don't dwell on it. Enjoy the new piano, and stop comparing immediately to any other places as soon as you buy. Don't beat yourself up. Life's too short to second guess whether you got the best deal. Enjoy your new piano. You'll like it better if you don't compare price at all after the fact. And I completely agree that you cannot expect a large discount on a new model. All sales people expect to make more from their top bin item. Just look at the difference between these two processors:

- Intel E5-2699v3 18-core CPU $4,397
- Intel E5-2697v3 14-core CPU $2,667

The top has 30% more performance but cost 65% more. That's what happens when you buy the top bin every time.

The OP and I have in common that we've both been shopping for 2 years for a new DP. The only difference is that I already know what to buy and the price to pay, just waiting for my current DP to die. I hear it would eventually, something about the ROM fading away.

Re: Buying a DP is more frustrating than buying a car [Re: MarkF786] #2466931 10/06/15 03:23 AM
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Good deals equals less piano shops. . . one at Penrith UK looks likd its ln the way out. It looked like it was doing so well, too with an excellent selection of aps and dps.
Less piano shops arent a big deal here, but in the States, or Australia. . . not good.


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