2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
86 members (AWilley, Akaitsuki, akc42, blindwilly, ambrozy, BeeZee4, Beowulf, 36251, 20 invisible), 576 guests, and 437 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
#2458859 09/11/15 12:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 451
M
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 451
From:

http://www.vandaking.com/s-1406-protek-lubricant.html

"A few drops on grand shank knuckles will eliminate squeaking and reduce friction."

People usually use teflon powder (or graphite, if old
school)on knuckles, and not Protek, but what's the reason for this?

If the reason is that the Protek will attract dirt and dust, then won't it do the same with the pins and bushings as well?

Or perhaps the protek will wick away too much? Teflon powder doesn't seem to absorb very well, even when you burnish...





Piano Player
Part-time Professional Piano Tuner/Technician
Piano Voicer In-Training
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Musicdude #2458861 09/11/15 12:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Dear you are writing too much wrong things in too little phrases.

Ask your mentors, I understand it may be difficult to progress when the providers say such stupidities.

What is the role of a lube on a skin that have fricttion with a graphited part ?

WHy do the knuckle have a nap ? (we could use other material with less friction certainly)

Nothing personal that is the way you state your own recently acquired "truths" while it shows you do not know much, which is a little unnerving.

PS talcum also was used, graphite on the skin is one of the worst (I think graphite grease is even worse, as parrafin)

Think contamination, not only lube,


Last edited by Olek; 09/11/15 12:38 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Olek #2459009 09/12/15 12:15 AM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 585
T
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 585
Well said, Olek. Hopefully the techs here will stop responding to this baited data mining.


www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Musicdude #2459025 09/12/15 01:55 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,570
R
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,570
It is wise to bring up questionable material in an appropriate medium such as this one

Remember that you are reading a catalogue. As such it cannot avoid also being a form of advertising and sales material.

Our suppliers have always been very conscientious and careful about this and usually hire professionals in the field to describe their products and their use and err on the side of caution.

However, something questionable might slip in for whatever reason.

Thank you.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Musicdude #2459034 09/12/15 03:16 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 153
U
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
U
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 153
I haven't tried CLP on knuckles, but used on real leather, it more like produces squeaking than reducing it.


Pianos and Service - www.martinwidmannklaviere.de
Piano parts and Accessories - www.pianosupply.de
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Tunewerk #2459040 09/12/15 03:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 250
C
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
C
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 250
Originally Posted by Tunewerk
Well said, Olek. Hopefully the techs here will stop responding to this baited data mining.


What's happening to this learning community recently?

Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Chris Warren #2459053 09/12/15 05:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,570
R
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,570
Originally Posted by Chris Warren
Originally Posted by Tunewerk
Well said, Olek. Hopefully the techs here will stop responding to this baited data mining.


What's happening to this learning community recently?


Human nature. It has always been there. People tend to pigeon hole each other, consciously or not. Guild or non guild, ET or UT, anonymous or not,,etc.,etc. Many take these differences far too seriously and will even make fools of themselves pushing their agenda and/or vendetta. This is mostly not the case, mostly it is not being aware of ones' own tendencies.

Even somebody's name can trigger a memory of someone with a similar name from a persons past. There is a name on here that is exactly the same as a local guy I knew who turned out to be a murderer. I have to be objective and be aware of this connection and get past it. Most people aren't and can't.

Even a nom de plume can do that. For me, anything with the word "dude" in It, signifys some kind of itinerant layabout, usually in an altered state. But then, I am of a certain age and theres a part of me that is an itinerant layabout too You know what they say anout pointing a finger.

I can get past that too and recognise that his( or her) initiation of this thread as valid and a pertinent question.

The OP may be disliked by some for simply asking a lot of questions or attempting answers to the questions of others that are apparently out of his depth. If anybody has a problem with any one aspect, it should ideally be addressed in that thread but, human nature again, we take a dislike and continually bicker and let it carry over into other threads. Some will seemingly willingly make a complete fool of themselves or risk having a fool made out of them in their venom by verbally attacking with no subject content whatever. others may not be in their right mind when posting. Dronk and drigs being rife in pur society Some automatically go online when they are angry or because they are angry or lonely. It's always been there.

Such is a public forum. There are some other more "idea" forums but they are mostly dead or dying and have outrageously wrong information on them that is not challenged.

Small price to pay for the valuable information here. I treat the whole thing also as a study in human nature and sit on all the fences having fun with it.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Musicdude #2459064 09/12/15 06:51 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
I try to avoid leaving wrong assertions without corrections.

And answer genuine questions.

But I like style, the way things are stated make the question answered more easily or, as questions/answers is not the principal role of that forum but more exchanges, constructive if possible, to go to that type of discussion a neutral, simple way of writing seem to be more appropriate.

I said "nothing personal" and I really think it, we don't know each other more than as pseudos on a forum.

But it is not always easy to depassionate, when wrong statements are so common.

Indeed I have seen other forum that look like civil war when compared. The one with the bigger ego wins (what?).


Last edited by Olek; 09/12/15 06:52 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
rXd #2459104 09/12/15 11:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 451
M
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 451
Originally Posted by rXd
It is wise to bring up questionable material in an appropriate medium such as this one

Remember that you are reading a catalogue. As such it cannot avoid also being a form of advertising and sales material.

Our suppliers have always been very conscientious and careful about this and usually hire professionals in the field to describe their products and their use and err on the side of caution.

However, something questionable might slip in for whatever reason.

Thank you.


Thank you in return!

Vanda King appears to be a major supplier for the piano tech industry, and since a very unusual usage of Protek is right on their product description, it makes me wonder if either a mistake was made, or that there really is a "professional" piano tech writing their catalog, who actually puts CLP on knuckles.

I don't know any other source or tech that recommends it.

Or maybe it works??! crazy

Has anyone here tried it?

Last edited by Musicdude; 09/12/15 11:19 AM.

Piano Player
Part-time Professional Piano Tuner/Technician
Piano Voicer In-Training
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Musicdude #2459137 09/12/15 12:35 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,616
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,616
Originally Posted by Musicdude

Vanda King appears to be a major supplier for the piano tech industry, and since a very unusual usage of Protek is right on their product description, it makes me wonder if either a mistake was made, or that there really is a "professional" piano tech writing their catalog, who actually puts CLP on knuckles.


I think of that site as more of a supplier to the DIY market, like Pianosupplies.com, or some other places I won't name (out of respect to the site owners here). For what it's worth, I have ordered covers from them before, and everything turned out fine (though one custom order did require two attempts). The real pros get their stuff from places and people that DIYs don't easily have access to.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Musicdude #2459159 09/12/15 02:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 812
T
Silver Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 812
I use ProTek alot but for knuckles I like McLube better.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Musicdude #2459187 09/12/15 04:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Boesendorfer did use a teflon liquid lube, but they stopped very very soon it made the knuckle too slippery (as does graphite)

I stopped looking for "magical juices" at some point, and noticed this is a common defect of self appointed and DIY to look for some magical lube.

Nothing replace simple solutions, long time proven.

The same with technical points, there is no secret trick, once a correct gesture is learned, one only add his own way or little tricks to do it faster or better, but the base is always the same.

of course one can change dramatically the touch and sound of a piano in 30 seconds with a simple tool, but it can be for the best as the opposite.

About Protek I do not have much confidence in those lubes.
I had to see what happens after a certain number of years with the center pins lubed with CLP, and find another lube that get sticky, spray that loose their efficiency and left only the binder on the spayed part, causing more friction and wear than if nothing where used (not only protek there is a German grey spray "Bonnaflon" which is terrible for that)

I have nothing "against" modern lube but not an exaggerated enthusiasm for them.

Some instruments from begin of 1900 years show us how they can stand the time without lube in their centers.






Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
That Guy #2459189 09/12/15 04:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Originally Posted by That Guy
I use ProTek a lot but for knuckles I like McLube better.


Totally opposed, as I understand it you did not notice how the McLube is making the action too light.

too slippery products, they are very difficult to clean, if they are sprayed on a graphited jack the graphite coat is made soft and transfer soon on the knuckle skin

Do not misunderstand me, I did spray McLube on whippens once or twice, something I am not particularly proud of.

On polyurethane knuckles, I am far from persuaded that the solvents contained in McLube are harmless to the escain, and for skin know they are not good and dry.harden the skin.


Last edited by Olek; 09/12/15 05:00 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Musicdude #2459198 09/12/15 04:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 812
T
Silver Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 812
Quote
Totally opposed, as I understand it you did not notice how the McLube is making the action too light.


First of all, I didn't ask your opinion Isaac. If I want it, I'll ask. I'm just relating what I do and what works for me. I'm not telling you to do it.

Second, I don't spray on the McLube. I wipe it on with a thing that looks like a cotton ball on the end of a wire. It only gets to where I want it to.

Yes, my teacher advised this: "Clean and shape, do not lubricate." But I have found McLube and ProTek to be effective and long lasting. Keep in mind that in my business I am not normally working on high end pianos. Lots of spinets and uprights that people don't want to spend a lot of money on. So, some lubricant here and there can loosen things up and make it functional.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
That Guy #2459247 09/12/15 08:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,653
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,653
Originally Posted by That Guy
Quote
Totally opposed, as I understand it you did not notice how the McLube is making the action too light.


First of all, I didn't ask your opinion Isaac. If I want it, I'll ask. I'm just relating what I do and what works for me. I'm not telling you to do it.

Second, I don't spray on the McLube. I wipe it on with a thing that looks like a cotton ball on the end of a wire. It only gets to where I want it to.

Yes, my teacher advised this: "Shape, do not lubricate." But I have found McLube and ProTek to be effective and long lasting. Keep in mind that in my business I am not normally working on high end pianos. Lots of spinets and uprights that people don't want to spend a lot of money on. So, some lubricant here and there can loosen things up and make it functional.

There is a tendency for some techs here to jump on a soap-box and try to direct everyone else as to how things should be done. We all solve problems in our own way. Some clients are not interested in having a concert quality Betsy Ross Spinet, so repairs and regulating will be a different matter for those owners. We do what works for us.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Musicdude #2459250 09/12/15 08:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,643
D
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,643
Olek, I have been using Protek successfully for over twenty years.

The CLP is Cleaner, lubricant, and Protectant. I don't know about the protectanat part of the name, but the lube works great and I feel the most effective part of the liquid is in its ability to dissolve and carry away dirt.

The OT doesn't state what is going on with the knuckles; but cleaning the knuckles solves many problems. Brush, blow out with high pressure air, and then a few drops of CLP has never developed into any problems in my experience.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Musicdude #2459311 09/13/15 01:28 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,570
R
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,570
A Problem with chemicals is that we don't know what was used previously. What may work for years in one circumstance may not in another. We don't know what we don't know. Tuners ram thick felt tuning wedges between the strings, destroying fine damper work. They don't know what they don't know because they always play with the pedal down when "testing".

There are many Instances of tuner innocence and its resulting damage but I mention this because I have become quite conversant with the prepared piano movement, being attendant at many preparations and talking to classes about safe preparation for Cage, etc. how convincing can I be when they observe a totally innocent "professional" treating the piano this way? As with scratching bearing surfaces, we don't know what we don't know.

There is a natural lubricity between dissimilar materials. Piano designee know and knew this.
Often the addition of a lubricant will make no difference. Often just brushing the nap will make more difference. Sometime by removing grunted up stuff previously put there.

There needs to be a certain amount of resistance at various places in an action and there are typical beginners' notions that if all friction were removed the action would function "perfectly". For expansion on this, Ed Footes' writings on here explain well about friction in pinning and various points around the action. Look them up. There are some fairly recent ones in these pages.

As for the statement; "I didn't ask you!". This is a publc forum and we must be prepared for answers that we may not like. Isaac has a lot of varied experience and connections and has delved into subjects over the years far deeper than most of us and his opinions must be respected. This is an International forum and many curious turns of phrase occur, some of which may be difficult in another culture. He also has an intensity about him that may be too much for the more laid back among us but we have to admire that and accommodate In order to learn from him.

Above all, these pianos are not our property, even the lowliest instrument. We have a duty to the owner. We may even think we will be the last tuner before the instrument dies completely. Be assured, there will be other tuners wringing the last drop of use from the piano and one of them might be you.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Dave B #2459351 09/13/15 05:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 451
M
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 451
Originally Posted by Dave B
Olek, I have been using Protek successfully for over twenty years.

The CLP is Cleaner, lubricant, and Protectant. I don't know about the protectanat part of the name, but the lube works great and I feel the most effective part of the liquid is in its ability to dissolve and carry away dirt.

The OT doesn't state what is going on with the knuckles; but cleaning the knuckles solves many problems. Brush, blow out with high pressure air, and then a few drops of CLP has never developed into any problems in my experience.


Ok, so you actually put CLP on grand knuckles.

Does it appear to be a long lasting treatment?

No problems with attracting impurities?

Depending on the pianist's preferences, does it sometimes remove too much friction?

Will the CLP ever mix with previously applied graphite or teflon powder in a negative way?



Piano Player
Part-time Professional Piano Tuner/Technician
Piano Voicer In-Training
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
rXd #2459363 09/13/15 07:01 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Originally Posted by rXd
A Problem with chemicals is that we don't know what was used previously. What may work for years in one circumstance may not in another. We don't know what we don't know. Tuners ram thick felt tuning wedges between the strings, destroying fine damper work. They don't know what they don't know because they always play with the pedal down when "testing".

There are many Instances of tuner innocence and its resulting damage but I mention this because I have become quite conversant with the prepared piano movement, being attendant at many preparations and talking to classes about safe preparation for Cage, etc. how convincing can I be when they observe a totally innocent "professional" treating the piano this way? As with scratching bearing surfaces, we don't know what we don't know.

There is a natural lubricity between dissimilar materials. Piano designee know and knew this.
Often the addition of a lubricant will make no difference. Often just brushing the nap will make more difference. Sometime by removing grunted up stuff previously put there.

There needs to be a certain amount of resistance at various places in an action and there are typical beginners' notions that if all friction were removed the action would function "perfectly". For expansion on this, Ed Footes' writings on here explain well about friction in pinning and various points around the action. Look them up. There are some fairly recent ones in these pages.

As for the statement; "I didn't ask you!". This is a publc forum and we must be prepared for answers that we may not like. Isaac has a lot of varied experience and connections and has delved into subjects over the years far deeper than most of us and his opinions must be respected. This is an International forum and many curious turns of phrase occur, some of which may be difficult in another culture. He also has an intensity about him that may be too much for the more laid back among us but we have to admire that and accommodate In order to learn from him.

Above all, these pianos are not our property, even the lowliest instrument. We have a duty to the owner. We may even think we will be the last tuner before the instrument dies completely. Be assured, there will be other tuners wringing the last drop of use from the piano and one of them might be you.


Thank you Rxd !

When I begun in pianos, I was only told to use 10mm there 47 mm there, on a given brand model.

to graphite the jacks and levers, then burnish.

But no reasons where given, I had to ask others why things are done a certain way, or to find the reason myself (sometime you find a false reason)

indeed the nap is what matters (and shape and hardness) on knuckles,
when the knuckle is deformed and compressed, there is no much control on touch and letoff feel heavy. Lubing make only things worse then, even if a non pianist may feel the action more "light"

the graphite is a sort of enemy of the nap as it allow the knuckle to be burnished as the jack.

the talcum or micro fine teflon used protects the nap from the graphite allowing the knuckle to stay clean longer (while making it smoother, some skins are too hard and noisy to be comfortable with.)

Best regards

PS I"d like to go along more often with what is written, indeed











Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Protek CLP on Grand Knuckles?
Musicdude #2459426 09/13/15 12:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 812
T
Silver Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 812
Quote
As for the statement; "I didn't ask you!". This is a publc forum and we must be prepared for answers that we may not like.


And we must be prepared for people to respond to rude behavior and set boundaries. I have the right to do that. I was addressing the original post, and I was simply stating what I do and what works for me, not telling anyone else what to do. Isaac stuck his nose in where it didn't belong. When you do that you must be prepared for the possibility that it will be shopped off.

This isn't about how much knowledge someone has. It's about our behavior in this forum and life.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Musician's Hand Sanitizer available in our online store (and our Maple Street Music shop in Cornish Maine). Antibacterial, 62% ethyl alcohol. Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Tons more music related products in our online store!
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Seeking advice: Beginner choosing a digital piano
by Monchhichi - 05/27/20 05:04 PM
Piano Voicing - dull sound
by Walkman - 05/27/20 12:03 PM
Can anyone estimate how much this is worth?
by John Upman - 05/27/20 12:00 PM
ABF Survey 2020
by Sam S - 05/27/20 12:00 PM
Digital Piano Aux Out Noisy Sound
by Mert Monteverdi - 05/27/20 11:43 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics199,216
Posts2,962,858
Members97,208
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4