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I want to play better, so i need to play exercises (I think).
Which exercises will I use?
Advice is welkom.

level: beginner-average

Last edited by ster100; 08/25/15 07:35 AM.
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As a relative beginner myself (3 years) , I try to split my technique work into two camps. In the first camp, I expand my vocabulary of the piano by scales (parallel and contrary, and also with one hand starting at a third or sixth relative to the other), and by chords and arpeggios (with inversions and seventh chords). Some people don't like this kind of practice, but for me, it increases my familiarity with the keyboard, so I know exactly where I am in any key, which helps in things like sight reading. The second camp is based on deficiencies in your playing. In the pieces you play, where are you having problems? What pieces can't you finish? You have to look at these and understand what the difficulty is and why you are unable to do this. A teacher will help you out with this, with understanding why you are not playing something well and suggesting ways to approach playing the problematic passage. To me, having a teacher is more important than practicing technical exercises.


Last edited by lautreamont; 08/25/15 02:17 PM.
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Agree with everything except practicing scales in 3rds and 6ths. IMO this is for very advanced,i.e. conservatory or pre- conservatory level students. Maybe for a third year student at the level of Kissin as a third year student.

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I started scales at different intervals just after I started scales at the octaves. There's nothing special there. Scales in thirds and sixths are no more or less difficult.

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I didn't mean to cause any controversy. Scales in thirds and sixths are probably best done once the basic scale patterns are more or less second nature (a second nature which I assumed someone at an "average" level to have achieved). I find them and contrary motion more applicable to the literature rather than parallel playing at the octave (which in my somewhat limited knowledge of the repertoire, occur less frequently, by composers like Liszt in some of the preluding sections of his studies, Chopin in the Bb Minor Sonata finale, Alkan in a few instances, and Scriabin in Op. 11 no. 16...I'm largely ignorant of the classical era, preferring more modern music, but parallel motion was somewhat frowned upon in two voiced writing). I find that contrary motion, 3rds, 6ths, and other intervals test my awareness of the geography of the keyboard more, and they give me more of a sense of independence of hands and of two voice polyphony.

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Originally Posted by Shabbat Shalom
I started scales at different intervals just after I started scales at the octaves. There's nothing special there. Scales in thirds and sixths are no more or less difficult.
But aren't you a professional pianist? If so, this would probably mean at a very young age you showed talent at least in the 99th percentile. So for you, scales in thirds and sixths might very well have been appropriate after 3 years or even earlier.

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Originally Posted by lautreamont
I didn't mean to cause any controversy. Scales in thirds and sixths are probably best done once the basic scale patterns are more or less second nature (a second nature which I assumed someone at an "average" level to have achieved). I find them and contrary motion more applicable to the literature rather than parallel playing at the octave (which in my somewhat limited knowledge of the repertoire, occur less frequently, by composers like Liszt in some of the preluding sections of his studies, Chopin in the Bb Minor Sonata finale, Alkan in a few instances, and Scriabin in Op. 11 no. 16...I'm largely ignorant of the classical era, preferring more modern music, but parallel motion was somewhat frowned upon in two voiced writing). I find that contrary motion, 3rds, 6ths, and other intervals test my awareness of the geography of the keyboard more, and they give me more of a sense of independence of hands and of two voice polyphony.
If you're only playing for three years and have played pieces involving scales in thirds or sixths, I'd be very interested to know which pieces. I can't think of a single piece normally played by someone with three years experience that involve those techniques.

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I don't currently play any pieces involving consistent uses of parallel thirds and sixths, but they crop up frequently for short periods in many pieces. Take for example Bach's Inventions or Duettos. If you look at when the two voices are moving in parallel motion (not the primary type of motion for most of these pieces), they are almost invariably in thirds (for voices with equal note values). These types of figurations are usually short, since parallel writing was thought to be inferior for two voiced counterpoint, but when a composer did write in parallel, it was most likely in thirds, sometimes in sixths, and very infrequently at the octave (again, for a two voiced texture). So, I don't play any pieces where thirds or sixths in parallel are an essential part of the form of a piece, but they do crop up frequently in two-voiced writing, as the most acceptable way for a composer to write in parallel motion, particularly when both voices are of equal note values. These are of course not multi-octave runs in parallel at the third or sixth, but part of the point of scales, at least to my admittedly inexperienced understanding, is to gain familiarity with basic keyboard geography, fingering, and motions, at first with single hands, and then together. I've found thirds and sixths to be helpful, but I'm under no illusion that they will be for everybody, nor am I saying that they necessarily should be played by a certain year of experience (fundamental understanding of scales should of course come first).

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Shabbat Shalom
I started scales at different intervals just after I started scales at the octaves. There's nothing special there. Scales in thirds and sixths are no more or less difficult.
But aren't you a professional pianist? If so, this would probably mean at a very young age you showed talent at least in the 99th percentile. So for you, scales in thirds and sixths might very well have been appropriate after 3 years or even earlier.


I don't think I had any special technical talents when I started, but it was standard for my teacher to assign such things to all her students. I think the key is having a good teacher to teach how to play these things; in the end, it's two hands playing together, just different fingerings.

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scales in thirds occurs in at least a piece from the famous op 100 by Burgmuller, Petit Reunion smile

not particularly rocket science...


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Why do people automatically think that playing better has to do with technique? You can bash Hanon for 10 hours a day for 10 year and that won't help you increase the range of colours you can make, it won't help you pedal better (which drastically increases your overall performances), it won't help you develop your musicality.

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Originally Posted by lautreamont
I don't currently play any pieces involving consistent uses of parallel thirds and sixths, but they crop up frequently for short periods in many pieces. Take for example Bach's Inventions or Duettos. If you look at when the two voices are moving in parallel motion (not the primary type of motion for most of these pieces), they are almost invariably in thirds (for voices with equal note values). These types of figurations are usually short, since parallel writing was thought to be inferior for two voiced counterpoint, but when a composer did write in parallel, it was most likely in thirds, sometimes in sixths, and very infrequently at the octave (again, for a two voiced texture). So, I don't play any pieces where thirds or sixths in parallel are an essential part of the form of a piece, but they do crop up frequently in two-voiced writing, as the most acceptable way for a composer to write in parallel motion, particularly when both voices are of equal note values. These are of course not multi-octave runs in parallel at the third or sixth, but part of the point of scales, at least to my admittedly inexperienced understanding, is to gain familiarity with basic keyboard geography, fingering, and motions, at first with single hands, and then together. I've found thirds and sixths to be helpful, but I'm under no illusion that they will be for everybody, nor am I saying that they necessarily should be played by a certain year of experience (fundamental understanding of scales should of course come first).
Now I understand why we weren't on the same page. When you said scales in thirds and sixths I thought you meant playing thirds or sixths in both hands(usually chromatic scales). Just like if one talked about octave scales it would mean octaves in both hands at least as far as I'm concerned. Sorry for the confusion. HAHA!

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Originally Posted by ster100
I want to play better, so i need to play exercises (I think).
Which exercises will I use?
Advice is welkom.

level: beginner-average


I think to play better you will only need some proper teaching and some good work habits including regularity. Everything else is adjustable, including the choice of exercises (or none).

But sometimes working on exercises on your own without guidance may actually make you play worse.

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I'm sorry for the confusion. I've edited my initial post to be clearer. It'll probably be a couple or few years before I venture to move beyond the very basics of double note technique.

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Originally Posted by ster100
I want to play better, so i need to play exercises (I think).
Which exercises will I use?
Advice is welkom.

level: beginner-average


Be diligent and persevere through:

articulated scales. each note precise. analyze your hand finger wrist arm movements (trust me this is crucial) and make small adjustments and work those in.
work off of a etudes book like something from clementi or czerny. (trust me this is crucial)

If youre diligent with these at slllooow speed but remarkable concentration on accuraacy and movement I guarantee after a year you will be way ahead of any other commonplace student (even students who deem themselves 'advanced' I assure you of this from what I see at school who all want to 'play' chopin ballade liszt liberstraum and beethoven moonlight 3rd movement but cant even do a simple scale or regular instruction out to any competent level. their hand movements and musicality of these pieces are lacking and gestures and way of play jsut shows they just memorized the notes and attacked speed only)

Last edited by debussychopin; 08/28/15 04:08 PM.

debussychopin.

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