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Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: David Boyce] #2452473
08/20/15 04:08 PM
08/20/15 04:08 PM
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DougMacfarlane Offline OP
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What subject do you teach David? Another question re. the piano: how do you adjust the damper spoons without removing the action in a Bechstein model 10? I didn't think it was possible, what with the tied action, but in the following article, this seems to be what is done. Unless the photos aren't in chronological order.. http://www.aatuners.com/bechstein-refurb.html Many thanks..

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Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: DougMacfarlane] #2452593
08/21/15 04:41 AM
08/21/15 04:41 AM
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Münster, Germany
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Gregor Offline
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Originally Posted by DougMacfarlane
how do you adjust the damper spoons without removing the action in a Bechstein model 10?


just tilt the action a little bit so that you can reach the spoons from above/side.

Gregor


piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de
Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: Gregor] #2452594
08/21/15 05:03 AM
08/21/15 05:03 AM
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Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Originally Posted by Gregor
Originally Posted by DougMacfarlane
how do you adjust the damper spoons without removing the action in a Bechstein model 10?


just tilt the action a little bit so that you can reach the spoons from above/side.

Gregor


In fact, that's exactly what's being shown in the first picture of section 11 of the aatuners webpage.


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Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: Mark R.] #2452599
08/21/15 05:21 AM
08/21/15 05:21 AM
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DougMacfarlane Offline OP
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I thought it looked like that, but I can't get the action to come that far out. Am I doing something wrong? Thank you for your replies.

Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: DougMacfarlane] #2452636
08/21/15 08:26 AM
08/21/15 08:26 AM
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Mark R. Offline
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I worked on a Bechstein 10 recently and remember that it had one or two metal action brackets below, which are screwed onto blocks attached to the keybed. These screws have to be removed before you can tip the action forward.

Edit: look for the screws at the bottom of the two spaces between the three sections of the action, close to the far end of the keysticks. Go back to the aatuners webpage and click on the second picture in section 10. You'll see the two brackets there. They are painted black.

Last edited by Mark R.; 08/21/15 08:32 AM. Reason: given in post, and corrected section 9 to 10.

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Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: DougMacfarlane] #2452651
08/21/15 09:35 AM
08/21/15 09:35 AM
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Olek Offline
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the thin blade shaped tool that pass between the parts is perfect to regulate the spoons.

I think Japanese brands where the first to use it.

I have one that goes on a multi purpose handle, very convenient.


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Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: DougMacfarlane] #2452710
08/21/15 02:51 PM
08/21/15 02:51 PM
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DougMacfarlane Offline OP
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ok, great! Thanks folks! I had looked at these screws previously, but wanted to check with pros before I adjusted anything. Thanks!

Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: DougMacfarlane] #2453148
08/23/15 06:29 AM
08/23/15 06:29 AM
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David Boyce Offline
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I second everyone's comments! Sometimes you find that the little bolt is missing from one of the two brackets at the bottom of the action. The tied action is a pain. You can pop the stickers out of the keystick ends, but it's all such a palaver putting them all back. With the action unscrewed from the bottom brackets, there should be sufficient forward tilt to get in and adjust spoons.

I'm teaching English.

Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: DougMacfarlane] #2453154
08/23/15 07:06 AM
08/23/15 07:06 AM
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Olek Offline
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Before regulating the individual timing, the dampers must rise evenly with the sustain pedal, particularly if there are no regulating screws for that at the bottom of the blades and the damper position is adjusted by bending the wires.

But, with old felts that are more compressed on their bottom , to make a good job, the damper felts are replaced; This is done with the hammers dismounted, then the sustain pedal is regulated

With a good rise of the dampers together, there is a neat trick to adjust the individual damper timing, with the action on the bench; A little complicated to describe, but the dampers are lifted by inserting a wedge behind the damper lift rod. This in effect reproduce their position at rest when they are on the strings (it mimics the string's plane)

The spoons can be regulated then as if the action was in the piano.

It is not the most precise damper timing, which is done in the piano, but a good method.

I use the tool with the tipped action when possible, but it is more precise to secure the action in the piano, use a half blow gauge (mine is a transparent Plexiglas so I can see the dampers moving while using the gauge, and using the blade shaped tool.

Very precise, once I get the position to grab the spoons
each time.

The correlation between damper wire bending and damper timing allow to modify a little the damper start by bowing the wire, but then both regulations are modified at once.

That regulation is not an easy task, anyway, and if the action is to be kept tilted to work from behind, the rods that secure the action at its top need to lock well enough the action in its normal posture, without the bolts, and this is not always easy to obtain.

When the hammers are short and they are advanced to reduce their travel distance it put out of regulation the dampers.



Last edited by Olek; 08/23/15 07:19 AM.

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Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: DougMacfarlane] #2453155
08/23/15 07:10 AM
08/23/15 07:10 AM
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France
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Olek Offline
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Her is the kind of tool for the spoons, the one I have is a Yamaha tool it is thinner and the lips are longer, that one seem to be a little crude and too thick but it can be modified probably (there is no much space between the parts in treble)



[Linked Image]


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Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: DougMacfarlane] #2453171
08/23/15 08:19 AM
08/23/15 08:19 AM
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Scotland
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DougMacfarlane Offline OP
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Thanks again for the information everyone!

Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: DougMacfarlane] #2453403
08/24/15 06:06 AM
08/24/15 06:06 AM
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Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Here is more detail on the method Isaac has mentioned. I copied this to my hard drive for my own reference.

In April 2011, Bill Bremmer posted this on a thread for damper felt replacement; it might have been Andy Strong’s (“Cinnamonbear”) Lester spinet.

Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
The first task is to get [the new felts in and] all of the dampers lifting with the pedal at precisely the same time. Then comes the spoon adjustment. If only a few need adjusting, that can be done by tilting the action back and attempting an adjustment, then tilting it back to see if the lift is right or not on each one.

If they all really need adjustment, I know of another technique that is sure fire but involves lifting the action out of the piano to do it. Years ago on Pianotech, I suggested this technique for a console piano with the spoons all hopelessly out of order. The technician reported back that in the end, this technique had worked when all others had failed.

It is a technique that I saw some 30 years ago on a film shown at a PTG Chapter technical. For this, you need a damper regulating tool, however. Long nose pliers will not do.

[…]

30 years later, I would not remember the title of the film or the company that made it but it was about damper regulation and showed how to make compound bends, and regulate spoons.

The spoon regulation idea is simple. Find one key where the spoon is already properly adjusted or do whatever you have to to get perhaps an end key right, such as tilting the action back, using a damper wire bender to adjust the spoon or use any other technique you may know. Mark or take note of which wippen that is. Remove the action and place it in a cradle or set it on a table or bench. Find a wedge of wood about the same size as a mute. Lift the damper rod and place the wedge under it until the marked wippen moves both the hammer and damper at the same time. Now, you can adjust all the rest of the spoons easily by bending the spoons fore or aft with a damper wire bending tool in about 5 minutes. Simply adjust the spoons so that all of the wippens make the hammer and damper move simultaneously.

For me, this was the tip of the Century because I could never figure out how to make one of those cock-eyed spoon bender tools work, not even for a single spoon! My hats off to anyone who can!

Bill Bremmer RPT


------------

After having used this method myself, I made a few extra notes, to clarify things for myself:
1) Definitely time the dampers to the pedal first! The above method uses damper lift rod to hold dampers one "timing distance" (i.e. half the wippen/hammer stroke) behind their normal position on the string plane. I.e. one uses the damper lift rod to simulate a new string plane, which is one timing distance behind the actual string plane. This results in the hammer and the damper starting to move at the same time. So, for the method to work, the dampers must therefore first be timed equally to the damper lift rod, as Bill wrote at the very top.
o If the damper levers have grub screws, use these to adjust the pedalled damper timing;
o if they don’t, then the damper wires must be bent correctly to time all dampers evenly to the lift rod,

2) When lifting the damper lift rod and fixing it in position, take care not to twist the action on itself, e.g. when wedging the rod or its lever arm in place, or tying the lever arm to the action post with wire, take care not to twist one action post forward, the other one back. The action must remain in its normal state of tension, as it is in the piano. Otherwise a systematic error is introduced and only becomes apparent when returning the action to the piano. (DAMHIK) Perhaps, as a safeguard, select 4 or 5 sample dampers in the piano. They will dictate a straight reference line that can be checked periodically. All the others can then be interpolated between these.




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Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: DougMacfarlane] #2453512
08/24/15 02:51 PM
08/24/15 02:51 PM
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Olek Offline
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France
thanks Mark;
it is not necessary to push as strong as to attain the moment the hammer move with the damper, because that put much stress in the rod and may twist a bit the action.

With the dampers a little back only, the string position can be reproduced, and the timing regulated with a gauge, by looking as if the action was in the piano.

as samples are used this is not a problem, just make the good gauge if necessary.

bridle straps play regulated first, for comfort of the regulation.

Last edited by Olek; 08/24/15 02:53 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: DougMacfarlane] #2453515
08/24/15 02:56 PM
08/24/15 02:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
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France
"For me, this was the tip of the Century because I could never figure out how to make one of those cock-eyed spoon bender tools work, not even for a single spoon! My hats off to anyone who can!

Bill Bremmer RPT"

the thin one sold by Yamaha (2 models, for small or tall pianos) work quite well. take a look at the position of the tool by tilting the action, use a tape to locate the position on the front, once you get the feel for it it is easy. the position must be always the same, if too far the blade can catch in the tool, but this is noticed visually and tactile.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Bechstein Model 10. [Re: Olek] #2453670
08/25/15 04:30 AM
08/25/15 04:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Mark R.  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted by Olek
thanks Mark;
it is not necessary to push as strong as to attain the moment the hammer move with the damper, because that put much stress in the rod and may twist a bit the action.

With the dampers a little back only, the string position can be reproduced, and the timing regulated with a gauge, by looking as if the action was in the piano.

as samples are used this is not a problem, just make the good gauge if necessary.

bridle straps play regulated first, for comfort of the regulation.


Thanks, Isaac, this makes sense. Of course the big advantage of Bill's method is that no gauge is required, but as long as all dampers rest on the lift rod (simulating a string plane), the method will work.


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