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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2515206
02/26/16 07:41 PM
02/26/16 07:41 PM
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It would seem to me that 60w or less would be fine for the home. It is true that you want to run the volume up most of the way so you get the dynamic response of an acoustic. Otherwise, you develop the habit of almost banging on the keys, and that will sound awful if you do play an acoustic piano. Several people have mentioned that in various threads.

On occasion I will try that with my V-Grand. It has 4 60w channels (240w) in it and really, that is MUCH too loud for my condo (just as would be a "real" acoustic piano) unless I play quietly. I think the V-Grand was really made for larger halls. So I would think that whatever the LX and HP series provide should be more than ample for home use.

Tony


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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2515209
02/26/16 07:46 PM
02/26/16 07:46 PM
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I think focusing on wattage is not really that useful, IMHO, unless you have a massive home or really loud parties ;-).

Rather, it's about the quality of the sound. I tested three of the four Roland DPs and bought the LX-17; I haven't set the volume higher than 50 yet, and it really fills up my room, but more important is the QUALITY of the sound. I found the sound stage / experience of the LX-17 to just be far more immersive and fuller than on the other pianos. Obviously YMMV depending upon your preferences, hearing, shape and setup of your home, etc smile


My music stuff (from my days before I became a lapsed hobbyist-pianist/composer)
Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2515217
02/26/16 08:15 PM
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How much did you pay for the LX-17?

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: ThatAdamGuy] #2515252
02/26/16 09:51 PM
02/26/16 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ThatAdamGuy
I think focusing on wattage is not really that useful, IMHO, unless you have a massive home or really loud parties ;-).

Rather, it's about the quality of the sound. I tested three of the four Roland DPs and bought the LX-17; I haven't set the volume higher than 50 yet, and it really fills up my room, but more important is the QUALITY of the sound. I found the sound stage / experience of the LX-17 to just be far more immersive and fuller than on the other pianos. Obviously YMMV depending upon your preferences, hearing, shape and setup of your home, etc smile


Well, several people in this forum have suggested that we turn up the volume most of the way for the reasons I stated in my earlier post. I have found this advice to be accurate, and the people who gave the advice are well experienced players who own DPs so I tend to listen to them.

I mentioned wattage because others in this thread seemed to be concerned about it. To me, based on my experience with my V-Grand (which also sounds great), I think that whatever wattage the LX and HP series have should be of little concern, as that will be more than enough. In a cabinet arrangement, the speakers and amplifier should be well matched so that whatever the wattage is, the overall design should maximize it (i.e. speaker efficiency and placement for best sound in the cabinet). Yes, sound quality is important (and it seems to me that those discussing wattage have already determined that the new Roland pianos sound very good), but people in this particular forum tend to make every little thing important, and that is fine because that is really what this sub-forum is really about.

Tony



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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: TonyB] #2515271
02/26/16 11:40 PM
02/26/16 11:40 PM
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People shouldn't get too hung up on wattage given the differences between speaker efficiencies (which are unfortunately not advertised). A very efficient speaker needs very little wattage to produce loud sound, whereas a very inefficient speaker requires considerable wattage to produce loud sound. I compared the Kawai CA67 to the Roland HP605 and while the CA67 advertises more wattage, I believe both produced similar sound levels (i.e., I'd infer that the Roland's speaker system is more efficient). But that's just going off my own experience playing/listening to the two pianos.

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: Composergirl] #2515305
02/27/16 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Composergirl
Nordomus, thank you for your reply.
What to you mean by noisy keys? On Kawai?

On Roland.

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: Nordomus] #2515325
02/27/16 07:18 AM
02/27/16 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Composergirl
Nordomus, thank you for your reply.
What to you mean by noisy keys? On Kawai?

On Roland.


My Roland had the quietest keys in the shop. . .maybe not the best but certainly very quiet. Still are after 3 mpnths or so.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: Nordomus] #2515334
02/27/16 08:35 AM
02/27/16 08:35 AM
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Hi, I agree... IMHO if you are looking ultra quieter keys try Kawai. Regards!.

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: Daryl D] #2515339
02/27/16 09:26 AM
02/27/16 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Daryl D
People shouldn't get too hung up on wattage given the differences between speaker efficiencies (which are unfortunately not advertised). A very efficient speaker needs very little wattage to produce loud sound, whereas a very inefficient speaker requires considerable wattage to produce loud sound. I compared the Kawai CA67 to the Roland HP605 and while the CA67 advertises more wattage, I believe both produced similar sound levels (i.e., I'd infer that the Roland's speaker system is more efficient). But that's just going off my own experience playing/listening to the two pianos.


I mentioned speaker efficiency in my last post too, so we are repeating each other there. I also mentioned that, in a console DP, the manufacturer is building the whole product as an integrated unit, and that the speakers will have been placed for maximum effect and chosen for their efficiency for the purpose for which they are being used.

According to Roland's site, the LX/HP series are for the "home" market, while the V-Piano/Grand are for the professional market. The V-Grand is equipped to fill a concert hall, while the LX/HP series are intended for home use. There is probably little reason to be concerned that any of these DPs would not more than fill a home with music.

However, I can see people discussing wattage and other aspects of a DP here, just as audiophiles will do when considering a purchase. Such discussion fits in with what subject matter is discussed in this sub-forum.

Tony





Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: TonyB] #2515362
02/27/16 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by Daryl D
People shouldn't get too hung up on wattage given the differences between speaker efficiencies (which are unfortunately not advertised). A very efficient speaker needs very little wattage to produce loud sound, whereas a very inefficient speaker requires considerable wattage to produce loud sound. I compared the Kawai CA67 to the Roland HP605 and while the CA67 advertises more wattage, I believe both produced similar sound levels (i.e., I'd infer that the Roland's speaker system is more efficient). But that's just going off my own experience playing/listening to the two pianos.


I mentioned speaker efficiency in my last post too, so we are repeating each other there. I also mentioned that, in a console DP, the manufacturer is building the whole product as an integrated unit, and that the speakers will have been placed for maximum effect and chosen for their efficiency for the purpose for which they are being used.

According to Roland's site, the LX/HP series are for the "home" market, while the V-Piano/Grand are for the professional market. The V-Grand is equipped to fill a concert hall, while the LX/HP series are intended for home use. There is probably little reason to be concerned that any of these DPs would not more than fill a home with music.

However, I can see people discussing wattage and other aspects of a DP here, just as audiophiles will do when considering a purchase. Such discussion fits in with what subject matter is discussed in this sub-forum.

Tony






Hi Tony. Sorry, wasn't meaning my post to sound like I was arguing/disagreeing with you - rather I was trying to support your point adding a little more information about speaker efficiency for people that might be unfamiliar with that term/concept.

Best,
Daryl

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: Fer De Armas] #2515372
02/27/16 12:15 PM
02/27/16 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Composergirl
Nordomus, thank you for your reply.
What to you mean by noisy keys? On Kawai?

On Roland.
Originally Posted by Fer De Armas
Hi, I agree... IMHO if you are looking ultra quieter keys try Kawai. Regards!.


But I'm still wondering if that kind of noise is normal for those models, could anyone confirm or not, because I don't know how to talk to them about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udQqBEaSzuw&feature=youtu.be

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: Daryl D] #2515385
02/27/16 01:48 PM
02/27/16 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Daryl D
Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by Daryl D
People shouldn't get too hung up on wattage given the differences between speaker efficiencies (which are unfortunately not advertised). A very efficient speaker needs very little wattage to produce loud sound, whereas a very inefficient speaker requires considerable wattage to produce loud sound. I compared the Kawai CA67 to the Roland HP605 and while the CA67 advertises more wattage, I believe both produced similar sound levels (i.e., I'd infer that the Roland's speaker system is more efficient). But that's just going off my own experience playing/listening to the two pianos.


I mentioned speaker efficiency in my last post too, so we are repeating each other there. I also mentioned that, in a console DP, the manufacturer is building the whole product as an integrated unit, and that the speakers will have been placed for maximum effect and chosen for their efficiency for the purpose for which they are being used.

According to Roland's site, the LX/HP series are for the "home" market, while the V-Piano/Grand are for the professional market. The V-Grand is equipped to fill a concert hall, while the LX/HP series are intended for home use. There is probably little reason to be concerned that any of these DPs would not more than fill a home with music.

However, I can see people discussing wattage and other aspects of a DP here, just as audiophiles will do when considering a purchase. Such discussion fits in with what subject matter is discussed in this sub-forum.

Tony






Hi Tony. Sorry, wasn't meaning my post to sound like I was arguing/disagreeing with you - rather I was trying to support your point adding a little more information about speaker efficiency for people that might be unfamiliar with that term/concept.

Best,
Daryl


No problem. I think you are quite correct about wattage though. For home use, I would guess that most any console DP intended for home use would be more than sufficient in that regard.

Tony

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: Nordomus] #2515405
02/27/16 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Nordomus

But I'm still wondering if that kind of noise is normal for those models, could anyone confirm or not, because I don't know how to talk to them about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udQqBEaSzuw&feature=youtu.be


a) Your seat is squeaking, that is distracting.
b) You are switching keys too fast, so it is not easy to compare the noise of each key.
c) There is the issue with non-high end microphones and Youtube compression etc., we do not know what is amplified and what not.

That said, it sounds to me like the sound of the key is _not_ more or less the same for each key. Do some make a louder/harder "thunk" when hitting bottom? Are some noisier when pushed down? Hard to say, because of c)

I think this action is noisier/more uneven than the one of my CN35.

Because it is hard to compare action noises that have not been recorded with the same equipment (see c) above), I start with the question: do all keys sound more or less the same? Or do some have sound/noise characteristics out of line with the others? This I would consider a quality issue.


Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)
Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: Hendrik42] #2515428
02/27/16 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Hendrik42
Originally Posted by Nordomus

But I'm still wondering if that kind of noise is normal for those models, could anyone confirm or not, because I don't know how to talk to them about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udQqBEaSzuw&feature=youtu.be


a) Your seat is squeaking, that is distracting.
b) You are switching keys too fast, so it is not easy to compare the noise of each key.
c) There is the issue with non-high end microphones and Youtube compression etc., we do not know what is amplified and what not.

That said, it sounds to me like the sound of the key is _not_ more or less the same for each key. Do some make a louder/harder "thunk" when hitting bottom? Are some noisier when pushed down? Hard to say, because of c)

I think this action is noisier/more uneven than the one of my CN35.

Because it is hard to compare action noises that have not been recorded with the same equipment (see c) above), I start with the question: do all keys sound more or less the same? Or do some have sound/noise characteristics out of line with the others? This I would consider a quality issue.

They do not sound the same, some keys make this "plastic" sound which you can hear on recording. Those are few keys, 90% of them work totally acceptable.

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2515562
02/28/16 03:02 AM
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If 10% of the keys, i.e. nine, make a significant different sound than the others, I would consider this a quality issue.

In fact, I had an issue with 5% of my CN35 keys and contacted Kawai. They sent a technician who fixed it: it was about adding lube to the right point in the action.


Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)
Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: Hendrik42] #2515572
02/28/16 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Hendrik42
If 10% of the keys, i.e. nine, make a significant different sound than the others, I would consider this a quality issue.

In fact, I had an issue with 5% of my CN35 keys and contacted Kawai. They sent a technician who fixed it: it was about adding lube to the right point in the action.

That's what I think as well, I'd like to know what Roland owners think about this as well though.

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: mcoll] #2515607
02/28/16 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mcoll
He may be right in many ways, but he is still missing the point. They are home pianos. Not a v-piano for artists, professional.
You want to keep it simple with them. Just being a great piano is the goal here, not ultimate customization.
Sure, there are some users which would like those options (and I believe the people of the forum don't very well represent the general population), but for most people, more options would just be confusing and would complicate things in an unwanted manner.
You should keep this in mind.


But this, to me, is why it's so illogical.

If I'm going to buy these because I'm actually googling for "physical modelling" and I care about changing these parameters then I'm out of luck. If the message is, as you seem to be implying "these pianos are dumbed down for Roland's customers" then fine - I think that's just insulting their customers though because, as I said, if someone buys a real acoustic piano and they want, say, a mellower sound, they get a piano tuner to come and he or she physically changes their piano. Roland, you're suggesting, would sell this customer a tambourine to avoid them having to make a decision about hammers laugh

I think a pianist who has played a real piano would relate perfectly to many of the parameters you can change in a physically modelled virtual piano.

It's like an arcade racing game might have a slider that says "oversteer" at one end and "understeer" at the other. A better simulation with a physical model would talk about tyre material, tyre pressure, suspension yadda yadda yadda - the end result of changing these parameters would be a car that tended towards oversteer or understeer. But trying to say "Well, car drivers don't really understand these things" is not really true. Most car drivers know what tyres are.

You could argue that it's simpler to move a slider, but I would argue that's just at the expense of actually being able to use the physical model.

The other point I tried to make is , if I'm this supposed naive customer who doesn't care how the sound is made or who doesn't want to sit and change parameters, well, then why only configure 4 piano sounds for me?

Surely one of the main aspects of a physically modelled virtual piano is the ability to sound like myriad different pianos? So why doesn't it? You know, for guitar players they are doing this kind of thing now, and they model amps and a couple of companies are trying to model guitars. So you get a box and it's trying to sound like Marshall, Fender or mesa boogie amps etc and a guitar with some kind of digital interface to sound like les paul and fender and a banjo and an acoustic guitar, 12 string, and also to let you change the tuning to drop D or whatever without having to actually tune the guitar.

How well do they do? Well, it's early days. They sort of sound a bit like a les paul, in the same way that some of the physical modelled pianos sort of sound a bit like a Steinway D. There might be something a tad artificial about them. Getting an electric guitar to sound like an acoustic or a banjo is a stretch. But you can see where they are going and why - and you can also see why a guitar player might think "This is great technology" - not because he has a degree in physics or comp sci - but because you put a box and guitar in his room that makes a passable attempt at imitating tens of thousands of pounds of real guitars and amps.

My question is, if these pianos are physically modelled then why don't they act like it?

Saying "it's because our customers don't care" seems flawed. They'll care about something that physical modelling can offer them otherwise, if they don't then physical modelling is an expensive waste of time researching and developing.

They don't appear to be trying to sell the piano to me, nor to this hypothetical customer who just looks at the spec sheet on digital pianos. I gave one example where for every other model of sample-based Roland piano from FP30 upwards, the more you pay, the more piano sounds (and other sounds) the piano has. Perhaps there are some other changes too like a more expensive action or bigger speakers, more polyphony and so on, but watch any video of a roland employee on youtube doing a demo and they are going through the different sounds. More is always better right in the eyes of this naive consumer. That's why the F130r is now the F140r. Or the LX15 is the LX17.

When the guy from Roland just sighs at you when when you tell him "I can't see the point in spending the money on this product" I suppose I have my answer.

Last edited by yb; 02/28/16 08:49 AM.
Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: yb] #2515610
02/28/16 09:17 AM
02/28/16 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by yb
Originally Posted by mcoll
He may be right in many ways, but he is still missing the point. They are home pianos. Not a v-piano for artists, professional.
You want to keep it simple with them. Just being a great piano is the goal here, not ultimate customization.
Sure, there are some users which would like those options (and I believe the people of the forum don't very well represent the general population), but for most people, more options would just be confusing and would complicate things in an unwanted manner.
You should keep this in mind.


But this, to me, is why it's so illogical.

If I'm going to buy these because I'm actually googling for "physical modelling" and I care about changing these parameters then I'm out of luck. If the message is, as you seem to be implying "these pianos are dumbed down for Roland's customers" then fine - I think that's just insulting their customers though because, as I said, if someone buys a real acoustic piano and they want, say, a mellower sound, they get a piano tuner to come and he or she physically changes their piano. Roland, you're suggesting, would sell this customer a tambourine to avoid them having to make a decision about hammers laugh

I think a pianist who has played a real piano would relate perfectly to many of the parameters you can change in a physically modelled virtual piano.

It's like an arcade racing game might have a slider that says "oversteer" at one end and "understeer" at the other. A better simulation with a physical model would talk about tyre material, tyre pressure, suspension yadda yadda yadda - the end result of changing these parameters would be a car that tended towards oversteer or understeer. But trying to say "Well, car drivers don't really understand these things" is not really true. Most car drivers know what tyres are.

You could argue that it's simpler to move a slider, but I would argue that's just at the expense of actually being able to use the physical model.

The other point I tried to make is , if I'm this supposed naive customer who doesn't care how the sound is made or who doesn't want to sit and change parameters, well, then why only configure 4 piano sounds for me?

Surely one of the main aspects of a physically modelled virtual piano is the ability to sound like myriad different pianos? So why doesn't it?


It does. You get 4 pre-made pianos (in terms of modelled pianos) and the piano designer app has a few more set up by piano tuners, and then you have a nearly infinite number of pianos designed either by yourself or by other users. You can change a lot of parameters, either using the DP's own control panel to adjust the piano designer parameters or using the app (quicker to do some of the adjustments on the app but you can do the same via the DP's own control panel).

Given the above I'm not sure if I'm missing your concern or not - I'm not sure if you're aware that you can change a huge amount of the parameters that dictate how the modelled pianos sound, from hammers to sound board to individual note tunings and tonal characters; is it that you feel that there aren't enough of these parameters that you can adjust in the piano designer or that you feel that there should be more pre-made modelled pianos bundled in the DP than the 4 pre-made ones plus the handful you can get from the app (or both)?

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: Statue] #2515615
02/28/16 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Statue

Given the above I'm not sure if I'm missing your concern or not


Probably, but neither of us are going to gain anything by another long post.

It's moot anyway now. I spent a long time looking at Roland's products and their guy just sighed so I went somewhere else smile

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2515645
02/28/16 12:07 PM
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For me, the "modeled" point of the consumer oriented HP/LX is not that you can have an infinite number of pianos or change an infinite number of parameters. The point is, that the modeling allows for the whole thing to sound more like a real piano. And given the way they handle resonances and sustain, they do.

This is above and beyond what the other vendors currently have and I think it is not clear if this can be even done with the sample/modeling hybrid approach everybody else is taking today.

Whether a customer actually cares is a different point. Some people remark that the Rolands sound more "metallic". I think, Roland would say they sound "Roland" like Yamahas sound more "wiry"/"brilliant"/"Yamaha".

So, one has to like the sound, has to like the action and the price, but they have objectively more resonances etc. which makes the overall experience more like a acoustic piano and helps with pedaling technique.


Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)
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