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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: CyberGene] #2447873
08/05/15 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Kudos to Roland for the pure modeling being further developed and put into more pianos, not just the V-Piano.


Has it been confirmed that the new pianos are "pure modelling"? I would be surprised if they were.


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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2447886
08/05/15 01:08 PM
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I have no reason to doubt that the sound is completely modelled based on the following:

"But a SuperNATURAL Piano works differently, using the latest modeling technology to recreate, rather than replay, the sound. The unique, modeling process spans the entire sound creation process of a typical piano including the combination of notes played, their resonance and the way in which the piano’s many elements interact with each other."

Two things stick out here in translation. "Spans the entire sound creation process" So unlike previous SuperNATURAL Pianos, which used attack transients for the beginning of the sound creation process, there is no sampling involved here.

"Recreate rather than replay the sound" Again means that there's no playback. A.K.A no sampling.


Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2447912
08/05/15 02:02 PM
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Okay. We'll see. This would mean that Roland have completely redefined the meaning of 'SuperNatural'. I wonder, if it is indeed completely modelled why Roland doesn't specifically reference their flagship model, the V-Piano.


Roland RD-1000 | Kawai CS11 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Korg G1 Air |
Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2447916
08/05/15 02:16 PM
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You can bet that I'll be asking a similarly phrased question during next weeks meetings. I was curious as to the lack of V-Piano reference in the marketing materials too.

I DO know that the core sound generation processor is brand new and VERY powerful, so maybe the modelling process has been significantly changed??? Possible. I live for this techy stuff, so I'll be digging into it to know more.

I'll know more next week.

Jay



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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2447921
08/05/15 02:28 PM
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Ideal, look forward to hearing more!


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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2447952
08/05/15 03:50 PM
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Besides,
I'd start to talk about "VERY powerful", if it - "the core sound generation processor" - would have at least 4 times the processing power of a Neo Ventilator with a 32 Bit SHARC DSP.


Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2447954
08/05/15 04:01 PM
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Well, the last part of what you just said was Greek to me lophiomys...

I'll know more next week.

Jay


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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2447963
08/05/15 04:29 PM
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Well!

i have been asking nay begging for a V-Piano Upright in an LX-10 style case for sub £8000, since the LX-10! so this sounds like a dream come true at £3500. However I am not yet convinced that this is a pure modeling piano:

Quote
... Uses the latest SuperNATURAL Piano Modeling technology instead of conventional sampling, for a far richer, more detailed piano sound


SuperNATURAL Mk I wasn't conventional sampling either. I read this as Sampling + Modeling but maybe with an improved algorithm.

Also the parameters in the sound designer look familiar to Supernatural but not the V-Piano:

Lid
Key Off Noise
Hammer Noise
Duplex Scale
Full Scale String Resonance
Damper Resonance
Key Off Resonance
Cabinet Resonance
Soundboard Type
Damper Noise
Single Note Tuning
Single Note Volume
Single Note Character

http://www.roland.com/products/lx-17/specifications/

Unlimited polyphony sounds interesting too.

This is all very intriguing but the proof of the pudding will be in the playing. To my ears, the LX-17 (in the hands of Kaneko) sounds greatly improved in the mid range and treble relative to the LX-15, less so in the bass.

Cannot wait to hear your thoughts, Jay, and demo it myself.

.... even with its stupid wooden key side covers .... ;-)





Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448017
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".....even with its stupid wooden key side covers...."

I believe Roland calls this a hybrid key-board.

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: EssBrace] #2448022
08/05/15 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Okay. We'll see. This would mean that Roland have completely redefined the meaning of 'SuperNatural'. I wonder, if it is indeed completely modelled why Roland doesn't specifically reference their flagship model, the V-Piano.


I agree that it's very strange to use the SuperNatural me if it's now pure modelling. All their other modelled products are part of the V family. It makes me think that there still might be attack samples involved. If it is a true V instrument, I wonder if it's possible to adjust things like decay length - that's something I'd really like to see. On the other hand, Roland has always had issues with the treble tone in its V-piano, so maybe it's better if the new pianos aren't V-pianos just yet...

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448064
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I'd be very surprised if the Supernatural piano in the RD800 is all modeled because it sounds more like unedited samples being manipulated by a model. The model or samples are leaving unnatural decays that are too short to cover well and there's no fix for it whereas there is on the V Piano. And the decays sound like single cycle loops that are not so much of a problem live but are a problem in the studio. Add that to some harmonic distortion within the samples/(model of) that wasn't corrected within the samples and it adds up to another nice piano that works pretty well for pop music but is far from being a piano you could use for classical and some other forms of music.

Last edited by wdco; 08/05/15 11:07 PM.
Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448072
08/06/15 12:23 AM
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Damn you, Roland. I now have to stop feeding my infant children in order to save up for an HP-605. On the other hand, kids supposedly cost you £200,000 to raise to 21, and that's a lot of Roland gear, so it's not all bad.

Bigger screen on 603 and 605: nice. Previously unnecessarily small, seemingly in order to be worse than the higher models.

Styling: The extra height on the 603 and 605 doesn't bother me, but seems a bit pointless if the speakers aren't changing. The LX-7 looks rather strange; it's not obviously more attractive than the 605, so I have doubts over how popular this will prove.

New key action: Surprised to see this. They've copied the "wood inserts" idea from Yamaha's NWX action, but otherwise it looks pretty similar to previous PHA incarnations. Not convinced this is a step forward since as well as the expense, it seems likely those bits of wood will add extra inertia to the keys, slowing the return and making fast passages and trills more difficult. Plus, wood just seems wrong in a Roland instrument. We'll have to wait and see how it feels, since that's the most important thing.

Key tops: I know it's just an animation, but are those keys smooth in reality? Ivory feel being abandoned? Not necessarily a bad thing. The Avant Grands' keys are smooth, are still grippy, feel great, and seem more like a real piano keyboard.

Sound updates: I'll eat my hat if these are fully modelled. If it were that much of a change, they'd be shouting "full modelling" from the rooftops. More interesting to me is whether there are piano sounds with significantly different character, like the V-Piano has 2 different models based on Steinway and Bosendorfer. Kawai has 3 and Yamaha has 2 88-key multisampled pianos on-board. So let's hope these new Rolands aren't stuck with variations around 1, as previous models were.

Bluetooth: Nice to see. More convenient and probably more reliable than Wifi.

Registrations: Great to see. It was pointless having a zillion customization options on your sound before, if you couldn't store them. Whether it's a good implementation, capturing the right settings, remains to be seen... they have experience with registrations on the RD-800, so there's hope.

Anyone else recognize voiceover man as the guy from Galaxy pianos? LOL


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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448089
08/06/15 03:31 AM
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Can we have a picture of the DSP board (aka "nekkid pics") please? I have no problem to believe that Roland has put in DSP power beyond what one would find in other DPs, but of course the interesting thing is how far they have gone.

Also, +1 on difference to V-Piano full modeling, number of piano sounds, changes in action.


Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)
Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448099
08/06/15 05:47 AM
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Listening to the sound samples with good headphones I believe I am able to detect the very specific modeled sound (BTW is this word written as modelled or modeled? The spell-checker in my browser corrects it to the latter and I see native speakers use the former). There's always something not quite right with Pianoteq and V-Piano. On the other hand I might be biased smile It sounds definitely better than V-Piano and Pianoteq samples, so could be the standard SuperNatural approach which if I am not mistaken is a hybrid between samples and modeling. We'll have to wait for Jay to confirm.


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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448100
08/06/15 05:58 AM
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Its definitely modelled and modelling with two Ls in English anyway, unless in American it's one L ?


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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: tabber] #2448105
08/06/15 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by tabber
Its definitely modelled and modelling with two Ls in English anyway, unless in American it's one L ?


American usage specifies one L when the syllable before the suffix is unaccented (as in "modeled"), but two L's when that syllable is accented (as in "compelled").

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: moleskincrusher] #2448108
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Originally Posted by moleskincrusher

American usage specifies one L when the syllable before the suffix is unaccented (as in "modeled"), but two L's when that syllable is accented (as in "compelled").


Golly! I wish the British had this common sense approach to spelling. Unfortunately, we revel in silly, anachronistic complexities. Nothing is ever as it seems. At least the Brit spelling kind of mirrors reality.


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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448110
08/06/15 07:04 AM
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[offtopic]
Mystery solved smile It turned out I've set my Mac to U.S. English and it suggests "modeled". When I change it to British English, it suggests "modelled". Now, I should decide which one I should use wink
[/offtopic]

Jay, when do you expect to have more information from Roland regarding the sound technology?


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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448116
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Defence or defense?

Americans use the latter; everyone else, the former.

I prefer D'fence because it implies an actual physical fence surrounding and 'defending.'

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: CyberGene] #2448126
08/06/15 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
[offtopic]
Mystery solved smile It turned out I've set my Mac to U.S. English and it suggests "modeled". When I change it to British English, it suggests "modelled". Now, I should decide which one I should use wink


Now come on! You're getting my dander up my good man! If I didn't know better I'd say you were asking for a bunch of fives!

There's no choice there. It's our language. The correct form is always British English. The way the Americans are going it will be a completely different (and of course vastly inferior wink ) language soon anyway.


Roland RD-1000 | Kawai CS11 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Korg G1 Air |
Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: wdco] #2448129
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Originally Posted by wdco
I'd be very surprised if the Supernatural piano in the RD800 is all modeled because it sounds more like unedited samples being manipulated by a model. The model or samples are leaving unnatural decays that are too short to cover well and there's no fix for it whereas there is on the V Piano. And the decays sound like single cycle loops that are not so much of a problem live but are a problem in the studio...


I don't agree. I'm not the biggest fan of SN but that is 90% down to the abrupt transition to a harsh metallic tonality with increasing velocity on a few mid-range notes. I think in other respects it is good. I agree the decay could be longer but I would say that about every DP made. I certainly don't hear SN decay as a 'single cycle loop'. The (modelled I assume) beating of the decaying note is the single most significant advance represented by SN. Now if you want to hear rather awful short static loops enter Yamaha stage right and Kawai stage left....


Roland RD-1000 | Kawai CS11 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Korg G1 Air |
Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448131
08/06/15 08:34 AM
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Well, I must admit I was trolling about the spellchecker choice laugh I wanted to be like:

[Linked Image]

Joking apart, that's my office PC and, working for a US company, I have no choice. I prefer the U.S. English spellchecker anyway, otherwise my colleagues from beyond the ocean would think I am too pretentious laugh (trolling again)

Last edited by CyberGene; 08/06/15 09:09 AM.

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Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: wdco] #2448150
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Originally Posted by wdco
And the decays sound like single cycle loops that are not so much of a problem live but are a problem in the studio.


They don't use loops on the SN tones. It's a completely modelled decay - that has been well-documented. I have noticed you have a strong anti-Roland thing going on - which is fine, but that doesn't entitle you to come up with total fallacies.

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: Hendrik42] #2448169
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Originally Posted by Hendrik42
Can we have a picture of the DSP board (aka "nekkid pics") please? I have no problem to believe that Roland has put in DSP power beyond what one would find in other DPs, but of course the interesting thing is how far they have gone.

Also, +1 on difference to V-Piano full modeling, number of piano sounds, changes in action.


I won't be able to disassemble a piano to get at a board. I'd rather spend time playing. The LX-17 video gives a very nice look at the chip on the Mainboard that I believe to be doing the new Modelling engine.

But I'll be asking questions and sharing what i can.

I'll ask about the modelling, I'll know the sound count, and will have a (subjective anyways) report on the PHA-50 Hybrid Keyed.

Wont be until next week though.

Jay


Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448201
08/06/15 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay Roland
Originally Posted by Hendrik42
Can we have a picture of the DSP board (aka "nekkid pics") please? I have no problem to believe that Roland has put in DSP power beyond what one would find in other DPs, but of course the interesting thing is how far they have gone.

Also, +1 on difference to V-Piano full modeling, number of piano sounds, changes in action.


I won't be able to disassemble a piano to get at a board. I'd rather spend time playing. The LX-17 video gives a very nice look at the chip on the Mainboard that I believe to be doing the new Modelling engine.

But I'll be asking questions and sharing what i can.

I'll ask about the modelling, I'll know the sound count, and will have a (subjective anyways) report on the PHA-50 Hybrid Keyed.

Wont be until next week though.

Jay


Jay, I'd be particularly interested to know if the new modelled pianos have the ability to increase the decay length - like the V-piano can. If I could get an adjustable decay (adjustable to much longer), I'd be ready to buy one.

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448215
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It's on my list of things to check for sure Ando.

Who knows, the decay may be a beautiful thing already....

I'm VERY excited about this new series. I love selling pianos. And I love that we keep pushing our core technologies for piano further and further along.

I'm probably most anticipating how the PHA-50 is going to feel and respond under the fingers...and how it connects to the new modelled engine.

The Player/Instrument connection on the V-Piano is incredible. And given the years since the V-piano was released, I'm very interested to see how our extremely talented engineers have made improvements to this incredibly important aspect of digital piano design.

Jay



Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448220
08/06/15 12:49 PM
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Lolatu,

just to clarify, The CGI in the intro video did indeed show that the key tops appeared to be smooth, but we are using the Ivory Feel Keys, and I believe Ebony Feel Sharps and Flats across the new line (603 on up I believe) I'll confirm that next week as well.

Jay


Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448567
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Just from the marketing video and specs on the LX-17, it looks as if the Avantgrand may be dethroned as the king of DPs.

Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448652
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Posts: 1,213
Vancouver, BC
JayGVan Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
JayGVan  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,213
Vancouver, BC
We think so Grandman!

I'll leave out the hyperbole until Monday; when i get my first rip at all the new models.

Jay


Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Re: New Series of HP and LX Pianos from Roland [Re: JayGVan] #2448662
08/08/15 03:55 AM
08/08/15 03:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,133
Sofia, Bulgaria
C
CyberGene Online content
2000 Post Club Member
CyberGene  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,133
Sofia, Bulgaria
Speaking strictly about action, I can't really comprehend how something with regular plastic digital piano action (and wooden decorations) would dethrone a real grand piano action...


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
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