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Ryan,

Thanks for the offer...I would be interested as well.

Ron helped me in the past with tweaking Verituner, but have never 'tweaked' Tunelab when I used it...would be interesting to hear what it does for my BB compared to the recent Entropy Piano Software that I used.

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Originally Posted by David Jenson
Originally Posted by RonTuner
Originally Posted by Lucas Brookins RPT
I think you should know how to tune by ear. How do you know that your ETD is correct? If you can't check intervals and stuff, then you don't know if it is correct or not. I have had to fix stuff by ear a few times because where the ETD put it wasn't the best for the piano.


Hey Lucas, I think you have Tunelab..fill us in on the steps you used to get the tuning file you found to have matching problems with a piano - and where in the scale the problems were? What kind of piano?

Ron Koval

'Hmmmm. 'Cmmon, Ron. The guy is 18. when I was 18 I had trouble remembering where my car keys were half the time. I'm trying to put a foot in the ETD world from aural-only, and yes, I have quibbles with the ETD (Tunelab) quite often, but I sure wouldn't remember any specifics. It's just not the kind of thing that sticks in my mind unless someone is right there asking questions.

Lucas seems to be talking in general terms. Sometimes trying to drag specifics out of a general statement can look a little combative, especially using the 'fill us in' wording.



Actually, my point has more to do with how easily Lucas picked up aural tuning. And as a skilled aural tuner, how his needs/wants for an ETD might be different than those that struggle with aural tuning. The use of an ETD for someone that is looking for a "pitch-adjustment/get it close enough so that I can fine tune it by ear" is different than someone that is working to get the best tuning calculation possible to use for the fine tuning... I know in the past, at least, Lucas used a template, similar to the built-in Average tuning in Tunelab that he would then finish up - especially if he was tuning EBVTIII...

I wouldn't expect that kind of ETD tuning to be the best match possible for any particular piano. Yet these are the kinds of experiences that lead to the (false) assumption that aural tunings are somehow automatically superior to ETD tunings, or that without aural tuning techniques, there isn't any way to know if a tuning is good or not.

There are good tunings and bad tunings produced by both!

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There have been a few times where I have had some pretty interesting stuff over the break on smaller pianos. I can't specifically recall any piano or customer. My point is that if you can't do anything by ear at all, then how do you know that what you are doing with an ETD is correct? Are ETDs always correct 100 percent of the time because someone else said that they are? I use an ETD and love it! I'm not bashing ETDs at all. My point is how do you know that what you are doing with an ETD is correct?


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I will also say this, when I took my tuning exam, I used an ETD for part 2. The parts that I used an ETD for, were the only parts that I scored under 100 percent on my exam. Everything that I did by ear scored a 100. When I went over the temperament with the ETD in part 2, the 3rds were not even. There was something with the Bs.. They needed to be tuned flatter than where the ETD put them.


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Originally Posted by Lucas Brookins RPT
I will also say this, when I took my tuning exam, I used an ETD for part 2. The parts that I used an ETD for, were the only parts that I scored under 100 percent on my exam. Everything that I did by ear scored a 100. When I went over the temperament with the ETD in part 2, the 3rds were not even. There was something with the Bs.. They needed to be tuned flatter than where the ETD put them.


I can attest to that. The aural Pitch Correction Number (PCN) was 0.7. The ETD runover PCN was 1.1. A low PCN is an indication that the tuner's results more closely match the Master Tuning. I discussed this with several other examiners. They all said it was regrettable that Lucas had chosen the electronic option. If he had not, he would have easily qualified for examiner training.


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Originally Posted by Chuck Behm
Hey Ryan - I believe it's your birthday today! I thereby declare this as "Everybody be nice to Ryan Hassell Day!"

You never know when you're going to tick somebody off here, so this should protect you against any big meanies lurking about.

Happy birthday, man. Chuck


Thanks Chuck! It's been a great day!


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Originally Posted by Ryan Hassell
Originally Posted by Chuck Behm
Hey Ryan - I believe it's your birthday today! I thereby declare this as "Everybody be nice to Ryan Hassell Day!"

You never know when you're going to tick somebody off here, so this should protect you against any big meanies lurking about.

Happy birthday, man. Chuck


Thanks Chuck! It's been a great day!

Wow! It worked. I tried to say something mean and the "submit" button wouldn't work. How'd you do that, Chuck?

Happy birthday, Ryan.


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Originally Posted by Lucas Brookins RPT
There have been a few times where I have had some pretty interesting stuff over the break on smaller pianos. I can't specifically recall any piano or customer. My point is that if you can't do anything by ear at all, then how do you know that what you are doing with an ETD is correct? Are ETDs always correct 100 percent of the time because someone else said that they are? I use an ETD and love it! I'm not bashing ETDs at all. My point is how do you know that what you are doing with an ETD is correct?

\

Ok, think back to what started you on this path - the local tech's tunings weren't good. How did you know that before you learned aural tuning?

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Originally Posted by Chuck Behm

This sounds very fair, Bill. Just one question - would the electronic examinee be given a few moments to calibrate his machine to the specific piano before setting the pitch? I have an older Verituner, and sometimes it takes more than a minute to do the calibration. Once that was done, a minute to set the pitch is more than adequate.

So (I have to ask) if you have had this in mind all along, why the big fuss? Just wondering. Chuck


Chuck,

I came up with this plan two years ago with the idea that sooner or later, PTG would either be forced or at least, find it to be in its best interest to do exactly what you are proposing: an elimination of the aural tuning requirement.

If anyone said anything at all, it was that they were totally against it. However, as Ryan S. alluded, changes in policy often start in long range planning meetings where ideas are discussed. When I originally put my idea on PTG-L, it got no support at all, only a few negative comments.

When I basically repeated the idea (with a few tweaks) on the exclusive examiner list shortly before the convention, it generated no comments at all. However, I did get a private note from Phil Bondi who hinted that what I said had been discussed at a recent long range planning meeting.

I said to the examiners that I was not suggesting the idea for anytime soon and that I remain fully an advocate of aural tuning skills but there should always be a contingency plan in case it somehow became necessary.

I'll have to say it again that the only way anything like what you have proposed or the plan I have would ever become reality is if it is brought up as a proposal before council. It would probably have to be an Examinations and Test Standards Committee (ETSC) proposal and for it to pass, would have to have the recommendation of both the Board and the Bylaws Committee. If some Chapter proposed it out of the blue, it would most likely be defeated.

Bylaws proposals are made and presented in the Fall (and without checking the facts right now), they are due in November, I believe and I think that means November 1, not 30. So, if you want something done, you have to get your Chapter to make the proposal or if you want to write letters, write them to your Regional Vice President, the PTG President, the PTG VP who was formally the chairman of the ETSC and the present chairman of the ETSC who is now Keith Kopp.

I am not sure who your current RVP is or what kind of support you would get from that person but I doubt very much you will get any from the VP or the ETSC chairman. Both are old school aural tuners. Still, all those people need to know what is on your mind. Only the President, Phil Bondi may see your ideas favorably.

You are welcome to copy the plan I have, especially since it appears that something very similar has already been discussed. As soon as I get around to it, I will copy it too and put it into a Word document and send it to Phil Bondi.

Let me express my opinion as well that the RPT-E category of membership idea will not fly. It is another, similar to the many which have come before it which attempt to create sub categories of membership. I have to say that Council will not pass it. PTG has been on a path to promoting the RPT credential (I prefer to call it that rather than "brand") for many years.

It would be said that RPT and RPT-E would only tend to confuse the public and members would ultimately be dissatisfied with a category that effectively labeled those people as "Junior Varsity". It would only lead to more hostility. "Oh, you're only an RPT-E. You're not as good as us."

You indicated that you thought my plan was fair and I think it is something that the hard liners could force themselves to swallow because it levels the challenge. You have to be skilled to pass, not just be able to turn on the device and turn some tuning pins.

The time limits, tolerances and multipliers are all up for debate, of course. They would need to be tested just as the original exam was by many people of various skill levels. The electronic exam could be made even more difficult with even higher multipliers, for example. Very few allowable errors. It could be made so stringent that only a person who knows how to custom program the platform could pass.

For example, the High Treble has a requirement that the octaves be tuned as 2:1 type. (Many ETD users may not even know what that means). That category has only 12 notes. If there were a multiplier of 10 as there is on Pitch, one would really have to know how to make the ETD do that as it would only allow for two, one point errors for a minimum score of 80. Make the multiplier a 5 and you allowed only 4 such errors (as it currently is with Stability). The Bass and Treble could also have such "killer" multipliers which would quickly weed out people who do not have sufficient skill and experience.

It could actually result in more people wanting to choose the aural option because it is far more forgiving. That is the major contention with the use of ETD's and the exam. They would make it so easy for just about anybody to pass with the current time limits, tolerances and multipliers.

So, I say, make the RPT credential reflect appropriately skilled technicians, not just anybody who buys an ETD and a tuning hammer.

There could still be a third option which would be the aural Part 1 but electronic tuning option for Part 2 and aural only unisons as it is presently and with the current time limits and tolerances.

That would give the people who can learn to tune a temperament aurally the same choice and chance as they have now. If they pass the tuning exam that way as well as the written before it and the technical, they become RPT's and no one knows what option was taken except the examinee and the exam committee. There is no second class RPT.

The electronic only option simply has to present an equivalent challenge to the examinee. I never yet met an electronic only tuner who claimed to have no judgment at all as to whether the piano is in tune or not. It has been seen that even RPT volunteers on exams often have limited knowledge of how to check and verify errors. So, when the moment comes to verify any electronically scored errors on an electronic only exam, the exam committee itself will have to be fully up to the task.

As for your question about readying the Verituner or any other platform for the Pitch score, it is my understanding that all such platforms operate in the "Tune" mode. The platform is powered up and set to read the note A4 on A4, the first partial. When the examinee says he or she is ready, the examiners exit the room and close the door but they wait just outside. As soon as they hear the A4 pitch played, they start the 1 minute clock.

This is actually the way it is done now, except that the clock is set for 45 minutes and when 5 minutes runs out, the examiners enter. If the examinee is done before that 5 minutes is up, the time remaining may be used on the rest of Part 1.

When the minute is up, they enter, measure and score the results. It should really only take a few seconds to tune the note to pitch. The examinee has a full minute, however to verify that the pitch is reading exactly on and is stable. Under my plan, just a few 10ths off would reduce the score into the 90's. A person on the other hand who would struggle for a full minute and still not be able to land the pitch within 2 full cents of 0.0 would not be qualified to be an RPT.

The same would be true for the rest of the tuning. Small errors would be allowed up to a certain point but a sloppy tuning would not pass. It would also largely rule out people who may use other less sophisticated type devices such as strobe tuners or Korg type devices.

The Stopper software would presumably be quite effective but the use of that requires superior hammer skills to get the precision that it affords. Some of these other software programs that are sometimes mentioned in this forum which apparently produce superior results would also be just fine. You can't get the results from them of which they are capable unless you know how to operate a tuning hammer at a professional level and that is the fundamental premise of the RPT credential.

So, I think that would satisfy the often heard lament that it is the final results which matter. If you make the choice to take the exam electronically only, you have to be quite good at it or you would not pass, plain and simple but if you did pass, you would qualify as an RPT, no ifs, ands or buts (provided that the technical exam is also passed).

I apologize if I seemed blunt when I suggested that your time and energy would be better spent learning what may seem to someone like me as minimal aural skills. But as you can see, none of this is ever going to happen before your current membership runs out at the end of this year. It was my feeling that if you accomplished it, you would be in a much better position to advocate for what you want by being an RPT, being elected as a Delegate, presenting a proposal that has sufficient support, etc. and presenting your arguments for it personally in council.

It seems to me from what you have said, that you want to try the "I'm taking my ball and going home and so are all my buddies. You won't be left with enough players for a game unless you do what we say" approach. I don't think that would work and it would not result in an organization that is more inclusive. It would probably only further polarize people.

On the other hand, if you come up with some good, solid ideas that have a chance of working and you get some of the disgruntled ETD only tuners to write letters in support of what you want to see happen, then I think there would be some chance of having PTG be the way you want it to be.

You could actually be one of the people who tests out the time limits, tolerances and multipliers. We would need people like you to show us where to establish those criteria so that a new, electronic only exam would indeed be fair and an appropriate challenge.


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Originally Posted by RonTuner


Ok, think back to what started you on this path - the local tech's tunings weren't good. How did you know that before you learned aural tuning?

Ron Koval


Good point, Ron and see my long post above where I commented about that very concept. Lucas is a fine musician. He didn't know interval checks, he just knew that the piano didn't sound anything like the professionally tuned pianos which he had heard in the many recordings which had attracted his interest.

For that matter, how does a performing artist know? How does a recording engineer or producer know? They probably don't know interval checks either but just like the ETD only tuners, they know when the piano is not sounding up to their standards.


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Originally Posted by David Jenson

Wow! It worked. I tried to say something mean and the "submit" button wouldn't work. How'd you do that, Chuck?

Happy birthday, Ryan.


David, the moderators have already installed mean comment detector software that automatically deactivates the submit button.


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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted by David Jenson

Wow! It worked. I tried to say something mean and the "submit" button wouldn't work. How'd you do that, Chuck?

Happy birthday, Ryan.


David, the moderators have already installed mean comment detector software that automatically deactivates the submit button.


LOL! Thanks David!


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In regards to ETD's results needing to be 'tweaked' to get the most ideal tuning, that has been my experience as well. But I am also certain that anyone who passed the RPT exam at under 95% could also benefit from tweaking as well. If an aural tuner passes at only 80% there is no doubt that the ETD will provide more accurate results than the aural tuner.

It is a lot like drawing using a stencil as apposed to freehand. The fellow who painted my trailer did a lot of it freehand, and he's pretty darn good at it. Another person may do great using a stencil. As Chuck clearly stated - its the results that are important.

And just to remind everyone - I tune aurally about 95 percent of the time! I used to be in the "aural or die!" camp, but now clearly see there is a middle ground.


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in fine, is the hand driven line more appealing than the one made with a printer

I think this resumes well the point.

th extremly straight line may have pushed some to reintroduce unevenesses by the mean of old temperamant

It is just not really necessary when the job is done aurally IM (nsh)O !

Is a well tuned piano one that have some constant shimmering equally borrowed by most intervals ?

Hopefully pianists know how to get rid of that , but it may take 15 30 minutes so it is not really the best option to provide that "computing" for the first part of the concert


Last edited by Olek; 08/04/15 05:53 AM.

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Originally Posted by Lucas Brookins RPT
My point is how do you know that what you are doing with an ETD is correct?


Perhaps by having your ETD technique examined against an established standard, e.g. a master tuning?


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Quote
"Perhaps by having your ETD technique examined against an established standard, e.g. a master tuning?"


Hi Mark - I don't think the answer to Lucas' question (My point is how do you know that what you are doing with an ETD is correct?) needs to be even that complicated. I've heard this question time and time again from aural tuners, as if listening to beats provides the only way to be sure that a piano is in tune.

Think about an automobile for a moment. You don't have to be a mechanic to know when the engine is running right. I owned a Porsche 912 a few years back, and when the engine was in tune and everything was right it had a glorious sound. Head out on the highway and open it up and it was thrilling. However, when the plugs started fouling (which they often did) the difference was night and day.

When a piano is in tune and everything is right, simply playing it and listening will reveal everything you need to know. Slow down, and play a piece you know one chord at a time. Close your eyes and just listen. There's a beauty to a well-tuned piano that doesn't take the ear of an aural tuner to discover. A note that is the slightest bit off will stand out from the rest. Chuck

Last edited by Chuck Behm; 08/04/15 08:48 AM.

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It didn't take a master mechanic to know when this was running right. It's the same way with a piano.

[img:center][Linked Image][/img]

When it's right, it's right. Chuck


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I too can pick up any piano sounds that seem out of tune when playing music.

The question then is: which note or notes, and how much and which way. You must use beats to accurately test for this.


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there are more than one way to tune a piano then to hear it is not in tune it must be serioulsy off.

It can also sound in tune but a little inhuman.

there are also more than one way to tweak a car engine

I have heard a lot of pianists very happy with a tuning that was "one step lower" to my ears;

the way the chords are ringing, they can sound mellow, rich, or screaming, even with a neat progression of fast beats in all cases.

You can have very pure slow intervals and noisy thirds and sixths at the same time.

You can have a so compact tuning that it make sthe ppiano sound old, and the melodic part lost in brouhaha .

The music played on digital pianos does not sound so much out of tune, but just check the beats and you will notice the defects


We need beats to understand where the flaws are, knowing the cts value will never do this.

What can work is noticing the amount of consonance, but this is a so subtle thing I doubt it cn be done by non tuners (non aural tuners)

WHen I was tuning STeinways D with the VT100 all day, and the aural tuner did take my job a few hours later, they cetrainly do not modify much the tuning, but they did retune many notes, just with a little more "spirit"; And finally the result was more lively.


But they would certainly not complain that my tunings where not in tune , or difficult to work from.

On the contrary, they did appreciate that basic strong foundation, it was not difficult to add their imprint from there.

I thought at those times that the computations did use too much comproimizing so in the end the result sounded too much "transparent", or inconsistent because of no strong affirmation of some intervals for instance.

A colleague did tune with much stretch, alsomt "pure "5ths, and very progressive FBI"s; Hios tuning had a very good tone for jazz harmonies, but where rejected by some classical pianists.

Very crisp tone, sensation of much power under the fingers, but too nosiy under some circumstances.

for the skinning of cats I have no much eperience, just heard that different methods could be used !




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