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why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
#2446284 07/31/15 03:01 PM
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I had negotiated a C2X to 22k including tax and delivery, but however c3x seems to be out of reach for my budget.

The price spread between c2x and c3x is rather large comparing to that of c1x&c2x or c3x&c5x, why is that? is it becoz of my particular dealer?

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Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
zhengy4 #2446289 07/31/15 03:14 PM
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I am reading on Yamaha's website that the C3X and above have a different soundboard, one that's based on their CFX concert series. Also, going from a 5'8" piano to a 6'1" is like going from a Steinway M to an A, which is also a substantial jump in price.


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Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
zhengy4 #2446305 07/31/15 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by zhengy4
The price spread between c2x and c3x is rather large comparing to that of c1x&c2x or c3x&c5x, why is that? is it becoz of my particular dealer?
This has been the case for many years within the C-series. I know there are shared construction elements within each size pairing. The smaller C1 & C2 also share construction elements with the GC1 & GC2, so economy of scale may come into play.

I also strongly believe, but would welcome correct information if I am wrong, that the Yamaha grand piano models below the C3 are sub-assembled outside of Japan before final assembly and action installation, etc. in Japan. In this case, global manufacturing would also bring down these costs.

Several other manufacturers also do this, some more openly than others because of the public perception of "Made in _____."


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Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
zhengy4 #2446321 07/31/15 05:44 PM
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Quote
Several other manufacturers also do this, some more openly than others because of the public perception of "Made in _____."


It's true.

It's also quite ridiculous that a product is supposedly based on "perception" rather than actual quality.

If this should involve China, they're barking up the wrong tree. They're not only having world's largest market but are quickly becoming world's most serious manufacturers of "Enhanced Consumer Grade Quality"

Buying themselves into more and more serious other makers boardrooms and production facilities....

Keep denying this and get this:

"Paying more - for less"
[at same price point..]

Which ain't "perception" - but has long become fact.

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 07/31/15 05:47 PM.

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Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
zhengy4 #2446343 07/31/15 07:49 PM
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The Yamaha dealer I went to had a difference of about $6K between the C2x and C3x if I remember correctly. Not sure what your dealer was offering but $6K didn't seem unreasonable at least as a starting offer.

Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
zhengy4 #2446354 07/31/15 09:15 PM
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I just googled one large retailer near me (Australia):

Yamaha C1X PE $30,995.00

Yamaha C2X PE $35,995.00

Yamaha C3X PE $51,995.00

Yamaha C5X PE $61,995.00


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
zhengy4 #2446360 07/31/15 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by zhengy4
I had negotiated a C2X to 22k including tax and delivery, but however c3x seems to be out of reach for my budget.

The price spread between c2x and c3x is rather large comparing to that of c1x&c2x or c3x&c5x, why is that? is it becoz of my particular dealer?


The spread has traditionally been this way, with the smallest increment from the 1 to the 2, a much larger jump to the 3, and then slightly smaller incremental increases up to the 7.

But it's always hard to generalize about the US market because prices vary a lot among different dealers. Your offered price on the C2X with the tax factored out is actually less than half the US padded list price for the C2X. In other words, it's a very good offer.

The spread of prices in Europe and Japan -- both markets with less variation from dealer to dealer -- is similar. The smallest spread from 1 to 2 and the largest from 2 to 3 with fairly equal increases from 3 to 7.

Sam may be right about Yamaha going offshore to cut costs on the C2X. Since Yamaha has factories in Indonesia and China, there's no end to the suspicions about what all they're up to there when the lights are turned off. However, don't draw any conclusion if no one corrects Sam.. There's almost no Yamaha representation on this forum. The only Yamaha retailer who posts here does so only occasionally due to a severe allergy to airborne BS.


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Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
turandot #2446435 08/01/15 05:57 AM
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Let's set a few things straight here.

First, all CX-series pianos are manufactured in Yamaha's Hamamatsu factory.

Second, half of the price jump between the C2X and C3X is based on the larger 6" in size. The other half has to do with bracing and other structural differences that begin with the C3X. The soundboards are the same, however starting with the C3X the attachment methods to the outer rim are slightly different.


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Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
zhengy4 #2446436 08/01/15 06:02 AM
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Just for you William, I doubled my dose of antihistamine this morning.

Zhengy4, your price for a C2X seems fair. I hope this explains why a C3X is so much more than a C2X:

Firstly, if you compare the C1, 2 and 3X prices, it's clear the C2X based on a $-per-inch theory, is the best value by far.

Based on the logic of 'More or less same components, same model series, prices should rise in proportion to length', Yamaha's pricing makes no sense. The fact that the soundboard construction differs in C3 and above doesn't justify the disproportionate price hike either. Plus, with the economies of scale, (ie Yamaha sell more C3 than C2) exacerbates this price hike more so. However, from a business standpoint, ie maximising profits, Yamaha will pitch their prices at the level the market will accept. Traditionally, the C3 has been the top seller based on it being an almost 'universal' size, not too big for many homes, yet big enough to satisfy many school and institutional needs.

Regarding the highly respected Sams's comments on economies of scale in 'size pairing' of C1 and C2, I think it's more a case again of company profit logic, the C1 being a more easy-to-accommodate size of piano than the C2, hence higher demand = higher $ or £ per inch retail cost.

Regarding the other cost saving theory Sam mentioned, I don't believe there are many construction elements shared between the GC1 and 2 and C1X and C2X2 as the GC series compared to X series have different cabinets, soundboard bridges, strings, hammers, keytops. Also there's a huge price hike between GC1 and C1, around £3,000, ($4,500)in Europe anyway. Whether it's a case of the GC1 being a loss leader or the C1X being overpriced is a moot point, the point is that it's business profit logic. If or when they need to make a correction, then they will.

Regarding if a Yamaha piano is made in Indonesia or Japan and public 'perception' of this, I have found no difference in build quality, cabinet finishing, bridge carving, stringing, hammer fitting, alignment etc between a Yamaha Indonesia and a Yamaha Japan piano. I hope the following links will help assure any doubters -

Yamaha 'Company of Origin, not Country of Origin - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s63-_eOGpp4

Interview with the president of Yamaha Indonesia - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm62ZOOQOMI

Now back to the antihistamines...


Chris Venables
Venables Pianos
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Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
backto_study_piano #2446440 08/01/15 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by backto_study_piano
I just googled one large retailer near me (Australia):

Yamaha C1X PE $30,995.00

Yamaha C2X PE $35,995.00

Yamaha C3X PE $51,995.00

Yamaha C5X PE $61,995.00


The step from CX1 to CX2 seems to be big in Australia. In Sweden the official Yamaha store quotes a price difference of only 6,000 crowns, or about 700 USD.


Yamaha C2X
Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
Sehnsucht #2446456 08/01/15 08:24 AM
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At our dealer the price difference was only $500, making the C2X a no-brainer for us.


Yamaha C2X | Yamaha M500-F
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Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
turandot #2446504 08/01/15 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by turandot


The only Yamaha retailer who posts here does so only occasionally due to a severe allergy to airborne BS.


I think you mean Chris Venables. Indeed, once a valuable asset to the group but now (mostly) absent. You are however, forgetting Jeff Bauer of Keyboard Concepts.


Kurt


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Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
zhengy4 #2446520 08/01/15 12:26 PM
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So, is c3x worth the price jump? What's the main difference apart from c3x has different Tim and thicker support? Does it really make it sound that much better?

Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
zhengy4 #2446527 08/01/15 12:48 PM
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Chris also has his own line of pianos I believe, the Venables. Would be interesting to see how that compared to other brands, materials used, construction technique, price, etc...

Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
zhengy4 #2446530 08/01/15 12:52 PM
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zhengy - Beauty is in the ear of the beholder, and its worth, in this case the price difference between C2 and C3, depends on your personal level of disposable income.

Don't be influenced too much by the technical marketing spiel such as rim thickness and thicker beams. Longer pianos need bigger beams etc to take the greater tension created by the longer strings. That's one reason why the C1X and C2X don't share those same build features as the C3X and above. The only likely difference thicker beams and rim construction would make to a C1 and C2X would be an increase in their sales but at Yamaha's cost of a proportionate decrease in C3 sales.


Chris Venables
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Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
zhengy4 #2446539 08/01/15 01:23 PM
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Zhengy,

I will defer to Chris here. I'm grateful he showed up. Thank you Chris.

I will offer a few personal observations.

1.) You've moved an initial objective question to a very subjective one.

2.) For me personally, things work out best when "out of budget" is put "out of mind".

3.) I've always felt a C2 (long before the X model ) was a very fine home piano, much as I feel a Steinway M is a very fine home piano. However, my playing skills are relatively modest, and it's not my goal in life to simulate the work of a concert-level pianist.

You need to assess your abilities and your priorities.

@Kurz

I'm not forgetting about Jeff, but it's my impression that his days of battling shadows (or perhaps allergies) here are long past. The last time I came across a post of his he was writing about a bag of popcorn.


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Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
turandot #2446558 08/01/15 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by turandot
Zhengy,

I will defer to Chris here. I'm grateful he showed up. Thank you Chris.

I will offer a few personal observations.

1.) You've moved an initial objective question to a very subjective one.

2.) For me personally, things work out best when "out of budget" is put "out of mind".

3.) I've always felt a C2 (long before the X model ) was a very fine home piano, much as I feel a Steinway M is a very fine home piano. However, my playing skills are relatively modest, and it's not my goal in life to simulate the work of a concert-level pianist.

You need to assess your abilities and your priorities.

@Kurz

I'm not forgetting about Jeff, but it's my impression that his days of battling shadows (or perhaps allergies) here are long past. The last time I came across a post of his he was writing about a bag of popcorn.
Such a good few points you made there. As much as I'd wanted say the Weinbach 170 as I liked it's sound, it was out of my reach at the time ,and as much as I would love as C3X that too is out of my budget and I'm not gonna take out a 20-year loan when I'm in my late 20s now to buy one either. Heck I already have a few student debts to pay off and they come first before a piano, especially if it's not gonna be used as your main job or to earn you your main income, as is the case right now for me.

So ,what did I do, remembering the tiny room I have and that I'd much rather have an upright again but my mum wanted a grand, I wanted something decent and the G1/C1s I looked at were expensive, I plonked for a 1989 G2 Disklavier which fits my budget and is a good piano, needs abit of voicing and stuff but hey I reckon I could've spent alot more and did alot worse now that I think about it. I reckon I done alright, you have to be reasonable with what you want for your budget , for £7,000 or there about's I could have found something bigger but being practical and given my current situation of being a student this was the best choice given I wanted to change my 1930s Paul Newman Baby grnad, you can find video of it and my Hayes upright which I still have on my youtube channel Samthebam4044 if anybody's interested.

Also there you'll see I'm not the most skilled or refined player, hence a fine piano just wouldn't have suited my style much, what I need is something durable and punchy sounding cause that's what I like.


Sam The Bam
Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
ChrisVenables #2446854 08/02/15 02:33 PM
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Thanks!

How does it compare to kawai gx2-blk? a dealer quoted me 23500, is it worth it? technically, apart from carbon fibre, what's the biggest difference between gx2=blk and a c2x/c3x? thicker rim&beam?

Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
zhengy4 #2446912 08/02/15 06:17 PM
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I couldn't answer that one, I'm not a dealer or a pro on either, Kawai's newer pianos do use more ABS sorta plastics in their actions. I dunno if the RIMS/Beams are thicker ,I wouldn't think so but I could be wrong there. One thing older Kawai's tend to have though they're not all the same of course, is a softer more mellow tone than alot of the older Yamaha's, though to be frank the GX-2/3 vs C2/3X are likely kneck and kneck quality wise. I'd go with what other have said, just go with whichever one has the best tone and touch that you like. I don't think you'd go wrong either way they're both highly respected makes. Price-wise best to ask someone else who knows up-to-date pricing and the market better than me. Older Kawai's in my area tend to be cheaper than the equivilant Yamaha's, that could just be brand recognition but these days the 2 are as good as each other, but they both have their ups and downs, the Kawai's action should be more resistant to environmental change but they both will have their own characteristic sound and feel.


Sam The Bam
Re: why c3x is much more expensive than c2x?
zhengy4 #2446946 08/02/15 07:37 PM
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I always felt that Kawais had more character and personality than their Yamaha counterparts, but that's just me.


2012 NY Steinway Model B | Kawai MP11 | Nord Stage 3 Compact | Moog Sub 37 | Behringer DeepMind 12 | Sequential Circuits Prophet 6 | Korg Prologue
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