2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
91 members (36251, anotherscott, Andrew_G, AllThingsKeyboard, Augustina, astrotoy, Amadeus M., Andy R, APianistHasNoName, 20 invisible), 1,675 guests, and 411 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#2445928 07/30/15 03:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,618
Norbert Offline OP
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,618
Why are threads always closed after some of us here try to rectify a situation caused by disparaging remarks specifically made against some makers?

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2438448/1.html

Sorry, but anybody reading through above thread will note that ridiculous claims without any foundation have [again] been made against good'ol Estonia.

Why is the discussion always throttled after invitations are made to these guys to substantiate their claims?

Are we not here to learn what is really true - as opposed *claimed* to be true? This, by the way should be for any make.

After having sold a great deal of Estonia grands, I still would like to hear from those who can report or have evidence about *catastrophic failures* or even simple shortcoming among those models made in the last 10 years.

Time for real men to speak up, not to hide and getting conveniently silenced....

What are we afraid of?

Norbert shocked

Last edited by Norbert; 07/30/15 03:25 PM.

www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,759
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,759
I never watched this thread before today, so I decided to 'binge-read'.

When Glenn chimed in with the Toyota-Bugatti comment, I had to wipe the coffee off my screen.

I just put the popcorn in the microwave, I hope the thread doesn't vanish until I'm done reading.



Jeff Bauer | Keyboard Concepts

Yamaha | Schimmel | Bösendorfer | Knabe | Restored Steinway

My soundcloud page
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,087
M
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,087
Norbert,

I'm guessing your purpose is to promote (and defend?) Estonia pianos?

The way you are doing it doesn't improve the brand's image (at least for me). Perhaps that's reason enough to lock down a thread.


Pianist and Piano Teacher
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,618
Norbert Offline OP
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,618
Well, I read again through the read and is not all that bad as seems.
And also "no" - I'm neither 'promoting' nor 'defending' Estonia.
Perhaps we did this many years back but is no longer necessary.

Congratulations to OP choosing a Yamha C1 - once played one of them in Portland and was thinking was a very fine piano, actually liked it better than some its larger cousins! thumb

My beef with the discontinued thread is that it allows hit and run maneuvers by those who seem to enjoy this type thing.

It's perfectly fine to like or prefer any piano - even 'lower rated' - than another one which may be higher. It's the nature of things. And its happening all the time! thumb

Fact be known that "not to promote" has long become my own preferred way when talking about Estonia: every new piano sold somewhere quickly becomes one less model available from arriving containers for ourselves...

At same time it's quite different thing continually implying certain unnamed inadequacies of a piano. Without any documentation, only God knows what the agenda might be.

It's like a trouble can needing constant fixing.
After a great many of Estonias sold - including the Canadian arctic - I cannot myself recall one single such case.
One or 2 cases needing extra attention were minor issues.
All pianos I know have those from time to time, including every make from tier one.

Statements wildly thrown around don't only go below the belt for those who have been working hard to satisfy their customers but are useless and time wasting for buyers seeking factual information.

Asking or waiting for documentation for wild claims regularly turns out being a fruitless and frustrating effort.

It's even risky: what if such cases actually exist?

Waiting.....

Norbert shocked

Last edited by Norbert; 07/30/15 05:10 PM.

www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,163
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,163
Originally Posted by Norbert
My beef with the discontinued thread is that it allows hit and run maneuvers by those who seem to enjoy this type thing.

It's perfectly fine to like or prefer any piano - even 'lower rated' - than another one which may be higher.
"Not to promote" has long become my own preferred way: every new Estonia sold is one less getting quickly in future...

But it's quite different thing continually implying some of the inadequacies of a piano that some have made here.

It goes somewhat below the belt unless is amply documented.

Asking or waiting for such documentation can surely not be a crime.

The truth is: No one said anything bad about Estonia pianos. The only comment made about quality was about Mini Cooper cars being unreliable. I'm guessing that was a tongue-in-cheek comment. Especially considering Mini Coopers are really BMWs.
And Bugattis are really Volkswagens, but that's another story...


My grand piano is a Yamaha C2 SG.
My other Yamaha is an XMAX 300.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,618
Norbert Offline OP
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,618
Well, here's some:

Quote
The only comment made about quality was about Mini Cooper cars being unreliable.


Mini Coopers, in this context were directly compared to Estonia.

Quote
Don't let those humbug Estonia fans rain on your parade!


Quote
Estonia is not at the top of the tree of pianos - that much I am sure. Steinway, Bechstein, Boesendorfer, Grotrian, Sauter are undoubtedly superior. Estonia does have shortcomings. The shorter pianos (168/190) have a thin treble.


The exact opposite is true. 5'6 Estonia grands have beautiful singing trebles, one of the reason they often outsell against others' larger models. If one dealer somewhere in the world is not willing or able to set the pianos up bringing out their innate tone qualities, it's not the make's fault.

[not the player's either..]

Incidentally this also related to our previous Sauters, stunning pianos in their own right but with MUCH brighter,i'e "thinner" trebles.

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 07/30/15 05:28 PM.

www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,163
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,163
English cars had a reputation for being unreliable. At least when British Leyland still existed. In Germany they were nicknamed British Elend (British misery).
And during that time, Estonia pianos were COMECON instruments.

Maybe a 40 year old Mini Cooper is as reliable as a 40 year old Estonia...


My grand piano is a Yamaha C2 SG.
My other Yamaha is an XMAX 300.
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 274
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 274
I'm on another forum and everyone there hates discontinued threads. All it takes is a moderator to get his/her panties in a bunch of there it goes - deleted or closed.

Piano people remind me of golfers. Too sensitive laugh


[Linked Image]

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,163
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,163
To go back to pianos: I have never played an Estonia or listened to one, so I can't really comment on them.

The thing about "thin trebles" is a matter of taste, or a matter of hearing. Or maybe of voicing the piano. It doesn't say much about the quality of the instrument.

In my opinion, quality means that an instrument does not deteriorate quickly. Meaning: It can carry its tune for a while, it does not constantly have technical issues like sticky keys or weak pedals.

I don't believe anyone said anything about Estonias lacking in that department. At least in that thread.


My grand piano is a Yamaha C2 SG.
My other Yamaha is an XMAX 300.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,425
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,425
Norbert, one of the reasons the other thread was locked was because of the tone that was developing... in fact, you were pretty much getting subtle insults and personal attacks from other posters. Now, you've started another thread that may well lead to the same kind of rhetoric/tone.

Maybe the others will leave you alone and let you have the last word, but I doubt it...

Most of what is said here on PW is someone else's opinion. When opinions clash and things turn ugly, threads get locked.

Is this thread destined to be locked too? We'll see where it goes.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
Hi Norbert,

I followed the thread but was too late to post as it was suddenly locked.
Must admit I do still lurk often but do not post much lately as indeed all too often much 'is often the same' and particularly in this thread it started primarily with a pricing question I cannot answer anyway from Europe.

There is in my opinion no need to promote Estonia Pianos as I know from first hand the factory is working at full capacity but indeed this thread irritated me because as soon as the OP announced his choice - which I fully respect - some people jumped to the conclusion that an Estonia 168 is in fact equal to a Yamaha C1X as none of the information given neither by the OP nor by the Yamaha afficionados allowed to come me to that conclusion.

1. If one goes through the selection process it does not give me any consistent comparison between the Estonia 168 and the final choice:

- First the 168 was compared to a Kawai GX-2: it looks like as if both pianos ware offered by the same dealer but this was not stated clearly. If not tested side by side in the same showroom it is already hard to make an opinion.

- Second the price quoted for a walnut Estonia 168 ($ 25,000) looks to me a a steel (40% below the P.B. SMP). This makes me wonder what the build date of that 168 was, how long it was sitting on the showroom floor, how well it was prepped, if the dealer was perhaps for whatever reason liquidating stock?

- Third all of a sudden the choice of a Yamaha C1X was presented. And that the OP prefers the sound of the Yamaha, this is find, but the 'professionals'(?teacher(s)' as the OP says 'had very technical reasons for their opinions!
Now I am always in for learning something, so I had really loved to know what those 'very technical reasons' could have been. Unless of course it were merely opinions, opinions that my dealer - a Yamaha Premium dealer btw - and technician of my Estonia 190 would most certainly not share!

- Finally the C1X was chosen after comparison with the GX-2, 168 and there nothing in this thread - it is even most unlikely - that these comparisons took place in the same showroom side by side. So what can I learn from this?

Still some people find all this information consistent enough to conclude the 168 and C1X play in the same league:

- after talking about the Yamaha CX series as compared to Estonia: as if C1X = C2X = C3X ....

- after saying famous pianists play Yamaha; yes of course a nice CFX (which I admire much btw)

- after sharing playing experiences on a C2X; the OP did not choose a C2X but a C1X

- and when Gleen Treibitz talks about a side by side set up between an Estonia 168/Yamaha C2X meticously prepped by the same technical staff this is merely an 'opinion'. An opinion for sure but at least one about a comparison that took place in standardized condition which at least for me gives it more credit.

schwammerl.

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,365
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,365
Haha, 'real men', 'what are you afraid of?' I must've taken the wrong exit and ended up in the wrong neighborhood.

I'm not going to make Rickster's life complicated so I'm not going to take the bait. Just type whatever you feel like typing.

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,921
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,921
Norbert, since you are quoting me, allow me to respond. Firstly, note that I wrote nothing against Estonia pianos.

Originally Posted by Norbert

Originally Posted by Plowboy
Don't let those humbug Estonia fans rain on your parade!



Poor old gokelly made his choice, a Yamaha grand. Usually, people send congratulations out when someone buys their new piano. But in this case, the guy got three snarky replies basically saying he was an idiot for buying the Yamaha.

Quote
Interesting decision. Good luck with it. Sort of like preferring production line Toyota (Yamaha) over hand built Bugatti (Estonia).


Quote
Just proves that old adage:

"There is no accounting for taste"


Quote
Or, the loudest piano is usually what sells.


Totally uncalled for, IMHO.


Gary
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,006
R
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,006
I am baffled. I read the earlier thread, and now have started reading this one. I am not an expert, not in the piano business, and I am puzzled by the bickering in the earlier thread.

Everyone here tells people shopping for pianos to try out as many pianos in their price range as possible, and to choose the one that calls to them. That is exactly what the OP in the original thread did. Kudos to the OP for being open minded and for going with what sounded best to them.

There are many wonderful brands out there, and selection surely is a matter of individual taste. There is nothing wrong with that. The music one prefers is also a matter of individual taste. No one is ever going to get me to choose to hear modern music, no matter how many times they tell me how great a particular piece is! Some people love modern music, and that's fine. It may even be great music. Also irrelevant. My preferences are what they are, and they are based on what sounds good to me. I also have preferences among the composers I love, which may be a more apt analogy. I love Chopin, but might choose to listen to Bach instead. . . .

As far as I can tell, the OP made a perfectly reasonable choice among a number of very high quality pianos, based on comparing the available instruments and preferring one of them over the others. It does not mean that the others were bad, or that they had anything wrong with them. It just means that the particular chosen piano called to the OP. And there we are. No general conclusions about the brands can or should be drawn from this small sample or from this choice. Preferences are not facts. They are preferences. No one needs to defend them, and no one should be attacking them either.

My two cents, as a complete amateur.




Last edited by Rank Piano Amateur; 07/31/15 06:29 AM.
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,272
J
Unobtanium Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
Unobtanium Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,272

Guys, guys, guys .... Pianos aren't like cars.

They're like watermellons. You thump on them and pick the best one.

The difference between two of the same make and model can be bigger than the difference between different makes and models.



-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,825
K
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,825
Originally Posted by JohnSprung

Guys, guys, guys .... Pianos aren't like cars.

They're like watermellons. You thump on them and pick the best one.

The difference between two of the same make and model can be bigger than the difference between different makes and models.




My so cal homies always keepin' it real. thumb

From the OP: "Everyone was blown away by the sound of the Yamaha." There you have it. They did exactly what anyone here would tell them to do: Play a bunch of pianos and choose the (hopefully high quality) one that talks to you. I have to side with the faction that feels that excoriating the O.P. after fact was simply bad manners.

Vanessa Carlton may very well be a Steinway girl at heart but Steinway doesn't do traditional endorsements and seems less interested in endorsement deals with pop artists. Equally, just because she or L. Gaga or anyone is seen playing a certain brand in a video, it doesn't mean that it's the piano that was used to record the song or that it's the brand of piano they have at home.

Kurt

P.S. If you don't want threads locked, it helps to follow the golden rule of making sure you're attacking the point and not the person.



**********************************************************************************************************
Co-owner (by marriage) and part time customer service rep at an electronic musical equipment repair shop.
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 422
C
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
C
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 422
Plowboy +1

When a member cuts a check for "the one they liked best", that's cause enough for celebration and a pat on the back. So congrats gokelly........lets see some pix!

blob


KAWAI RX-3 BLAK
YAMAHA GRANTOUCH GT1
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 608
D
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 608
why can't everyone accept tastes are different? why open up a can of worms with a troll thread like "please, choose the piano I should buy"

If one is interested in a piano, just buy it. There's plenty of piano makers for all tastes and pockets... they are all different and yet they are all pianos, there's no better one. You may like grandiose or quieter, light or heavy and much more...


unlocked by keys
wordless poetry sings free
- piano music -
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 167
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 167
I would have to agree with those who suggest that the thread was rightly locked on account of some of the posts made about the OPs choice. I must admit, by comparison, the "Estonia bashing" referred to never really registered much with me. Plowboy picked up three separate posts that could be considered borderline abusive to the OP for trying lots of pianos and buying what he likes. In other words doing exactly what everyone on here suggests when people ask for buying advice.

In a meaningful sense I know nothing about Estonias. I quite literally only know they even exist because of this forum. the comments on here lead me to think that they're probably excellent, and the "Boogie Woogie" video that was posted on here recently makes me curious to try one if they're ever brought to anywhere near London in numbers.

But I am pretty familiar with Yamaha, having recently bought my third one (a YUS5) which I'm absolutely delighted with four Months on. Having tried lots of pianos (some three or four times) it was eventually the clear winner for me when juggling quality and price. The OP has clearly made the same decision with his C1X. And I think bringing in the opinion of a Concert Pianist (Joe 80, sorry for dragging you into this Joe!) on the instrument that the OP chose.

Originally Posted by joe80
It's true - you have to audition the exact piano you want to buy, and there is even a risk there, as you don't know how it will sound or hold up in 5, 10, 15 years time - although with Yamaha and Kawai, to be fair, it's a pretty safe bet that they'll still be good if looked after.

snip

Of course, when you start to get pianos of 5'4 and under, you probably don't gain all that much by going for tier one, and I'll quite openly say that I believe Yamaha have absolutely mastered the art of building the smaller grand pianos - and I'm talking about the C1 and C2 (I know the C2 is 5'8). I have tried their GB1 and I think it's basically a piece of furniture.


So the advice was "audition the piano you want to buy". Well the OP did that. he also chose a brand that was "a safe bet that it will still be good (in 15 years time) if looked after". He also chose a small grand piano from a manufacturer who has "absolutely mastered the art of building the smaller grand pianos" and apparently compared to the choice he made "you probably don't gain all that much by going for tier 1".

Based on the above highly qualified opinion, sounds to me like GoKelly is a classic case of someone who's done their research, and made the right choice for them, for the right reasons. Others might have made a different choice given the same circumstances, and that would have been right for them too. I'm certainly not taking Joe's post as being some kind of statement that Yamaha is thebest choice in the "small grand" market (I'm sure he'd soon correct that if I did). What I amdoing, is using the post as evidence that for someone to choose a small Yamaha Grand is a perfectly sensible choice even when compared to more "prestigious" competition.

Given the above, some of the comments on the other thread were out of order imho, and totally justified it being locked. Those comments were really unhelpful imho, and actually made the forum look a less welcoming place for people looking for advice. I'm just going to finish by saying to gokelly, if you're reading this, enjoy your piano. You've bought a really good instrument that should serve you well for decades. Let us know how you get on, as it's always great to hear someone enjoying such a personal and emotive purchase.

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,365
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,365
It sounds like we're all in agreement. OK, lock the thread. JK.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Garritan with Sibelius "sound set" ?
by RinTin - 09/28/21 03:13 PM
help teaching an autistic child
by sheilaju - 09/28/21 02:33 PM
Old Kawai MP6
by johan d - 09/28/21 02:04 PM
Half Pedaling reality check
by Dore - 09/28/21 12:47 PM
Confused.
by Cutec - 09/28/21 10:43 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Our Free Newsletter for Piano Lovers!
The summer edition of our free newsletter
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics209,335
Posts3,135,861
Members102,845
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5