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Cross staff notes, how to play? #2442481
07/18/15 12:30 PM
07/18/15 12:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 769
Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline OP
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Hi everyone,

I'm not entirely sure how to play cross-staff notes. Do you play them with the hand where they originate or the hand where they actually are? For instance, eighth notes on the bass staff that you're playing with the left hand, but then one crosses to the treble. Is it still played with the left hand, because it originated there, or with the right hand because that's where it is now?

Sorry for my terminology, I don't know how to put this into technical terms.

Thank you!!



Currently working at RCM grade 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
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Re: Cross staff notes, how to play? [Re: ebonykawai] #2442482
07/18/15 12:36 PM
07/18/15 12:36 PM
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Devon, UK
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Trev-M Offline
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I think you're intended to play them with the other hand, else they'd be on ledger lines up or down from the original staff.


Monington & Weston 1930's baby grand, an old Roland and a portable Yamaha
http://wavesculptor.net/piano-world/Trev_n_lady_Monington.jpg
Re: Cross staff notes, how to play? [Re: ebonykawai] #2442496
07/18/15 01:48 PM
07/18/15 01:48 PM
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Posts: 769
Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline OP
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ebonykawai  Offline OP
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Thank you, that's what I was figuring but I wasn't sure!


Currently working at RCM grade 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: Cross staff notes, how to play? [Re: Trev-M] #2442536
07/18/15 05:16 PM
07/18/15 05:16 PM
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New York City
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Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted by Trev-M
I think you're intended to play them with the other hand, else they'd be on ledger lines up or down from the original staff.

That's not necessarily the case. If the OP posted a screenshot of the passage in question things might become much clearer.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Cross staff notes, how to play? [Re: ebonykawai] #2442543
07/18/15 05:41 PM
07/18/15 05:41 PM
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Warsaw, Poland
Qazsedcft Offline
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Yes, that's not always the case. Sometimes hands cross over to play notes further up or further down. It depends on the music.


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Re: Cross staff notes, how to play? [Re: Polyphonist] #2442546
07/18/15 05:46 PM
07/18/15 05:46 PM
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Devon, UK
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Trev-M Offline
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
That's not necessarily the case.


Clearly! We're talking music here! ;-)

I try to play quite a bit of transcribed music, and I tend to find the opposite, I'd need 6" fingers to play some of the default ledger notes, which are a comfortable reach from the other hand.

If you know of a good example where the opposite applies, I'd be interested to see it.

Here's an unlikely looking one to me from an arrangement of Meglio Stasera from the original Pink Panther film: I think the whole bar is only possible as written with a sostenuto pedal.

[Linked Image] - not got on my 1930s-er!


Monington & Weston 1930's baby grand, an old Roland and a portable Yamaha
http://wavesculptor.net/piano-world/Trev_n_lady_Monington.jpg
Re: Cross staff notes, how to play? [Re: Qazsedcft] #2442549
07/18/15 06:20 PM
07/18/15 06:20 PM
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Devon, UK
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Originally Posted by qazsedcft
Sometimes hands cross over to play notes further up or further down


But surely that has everything to do with ledger lines and nothing to do with cross-staff notes? If someone goes to the trouble of putting a cross-staff note in, it must be an attempt to solve some reach/timing problem? As in my example above, the long reach to the top Bb would break up the bass rhythm, and presuming a sostenuto is placed while the Abm7 is held, the right hand is free to carry on. I tried it without sostenuto, and can just about hit the crossover Bb and next Cb while playing the bass riff (very slowly, this is) but even then it doesnt sound regular. After that, I'd probably just let go of the Abm7 and get the next notes with the RH as written.


Monington & Weston 1930's baby grand, an old Roland and a portable Yamaha
http://wavesculptor.net/piano-world/Trev_n_lady_Monington.jpg
Re: Cross staff notes, how to play? [Re: Polyphonist] #2442564
07/18/15 09:20 PM
07/18/15 09:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 769
Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline OP
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ebonykawai  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 769
Niagara Falls NY
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Trev-M
I think you're intended to play them with the other hand, else they'd be on ledger lines up or down from the original staff.

That's not necessarily the case. If the OP posted a screenshot of the passage in question things might become much clearer.


I don't have one. Sorry, it was just a general question about them.

Should I look at them as a hint to decide which fingering works best for me? I did some googling and didn't fully realize that I have a lot of freedom to decide on fingering. I'm not that experienced, obviously. Sorry!

Last edited by ebonykawai; 07/18/15 09:26 PM.

Currently working at RCM grade 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: Cross staff notes, how to play? [Re: ebonykawai] #2442579
07/18/15 11:15 PM
07/18/15 11:15 PM
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Finland
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outo Offline
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Originally Posted by ebonykawai
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Trev-M
I think you're intended to play them with the other hand, else they'd be on ledger lines up or down from the original staff.

That's not necessarily the case. If the OP posted a screenshot of the passage in question things might become much clearer.


Should I look at them as a hint to decide which fingering works best for me?


Sometimes this is done simply to make reading easier (to avoid ledge lines). Sometimes the composer/editor want to make the different voices more clear or the score more elegant I guess. Sometimes they actually tell you that you are supposed to use the other hand.

So there's really no fixed rules. Sometimes it's quite obvious, like when a scale continues to the other staff or when the other hand runs out of fingers to use, but when not you choose based on what works best both technically and musically.

Re: Cross staff notes, how to play? [Re: outo] #2442583
07/18/15 11:45 PM
07/18/15 11:45 PM
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Nashville, TN
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Brian Lucas Offline
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Originally Posted by outo
Sometimes this is done simply to make reading easier (to avoid ledge lines). Sometimes the composer/editor want to make the different voices more clear or the score more elegant I guess. Sometimes they actually tell you that you are supposed to use the other hand.

So there's really no fixed rules. Sometimes it's quite obvious, like when a scale continues to the other staff or when the other hand runs out of fingers to use, but when not you choose based on what works best both technically and musically.

That's the bottom line, no definitive rule. It's a case by case basis. If they are eighth notes, sometimes the publisher will keep the beams in the bass clef to indicate no change in hands. Sometimes there is also a line drawn to indicate that a hand is changing to a different staff. But it's not always obvious. Ledger lines make sense, until you start adding 2 or more in the middle, then it can get messy. Easier to read if you just change clefs.


-Brian
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Re: Cross staff notes, how to play? [Re: ebonykawai] #2442615
07/19/15 05:07 AM
07/19/15 05:07 AM
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Notation can be at the whim of the composer or the editor, as to how the notes are distributed. Usually, it's obvious whether the notes are meant to be continued with the same hand or taken up by the other.

If there's any ambiguity, usually you see m.s. (= mano sinistra = LH) or m.d. (= mano destra = RH) - e.g. in Scarlatti's Sonata in B minor, Kk27, where there's a lot of hand-crossing.

Last edited by bennevis; 07/19/15 08:01 AM. Reason: numbering mistake corrected

"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Cross staff notes, how to play? [Re: bennevis] #2442640
07/19/15 07:45 AM
07/19/15 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Notation can be at the whim of the composer or the editor, as to how the notes are distributed. Usually, it's obvious whether the notes are meant to be continued with the same hand or taken up by the other.

If there's any ambiguity, usually you see m.s. (= mano sinistra = LH) or m.d. (= mano destra = RH) - e.g. in Scarlatti's Sonata in B minor, Kk87, where there's a lot of hand-crossing.


In which edition do you see that? confused

Re: Cross staff notes, how to play? [Re: outo] #2442648
07/19/15 08:00 AM
07/19/15 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by bennevis
Notation can be at the whim of the composer or the editor, as to how the notes are distributed. Usually, it's obvious whether the notes are meant to be continued with the same hand or taken up by the other.

If there's any ambiguity, usually you see m.s. (= mano sinistra = LH) or m.d. (= mano destra = RH) - e.g. in Scarlatti's Sonata in B minor, Kk87, where there's a lot of hand-crossing.


In which edition do you see that? confused

Oops, mistake cry.

It was Kk27 in B minor, not Kk87.

(I blame Scarlatti for writing so many sonatas in the same keys.... wink ).


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Cross staff notes, how to play? [Re: bennevis] #2442650
07/19/15 08:02 AM
07/19/15 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by bennevis
Notation can be at the whim of the composer or the editor, as to how the notes are distributed. Usually, it's obvious whether the notes are meant to be continued with the same hand or taken up by the other.

If there's any ambiguity, usually you see m.s. (= mano sinistra = LH) or m.d. (= mano destra = RH) - e.g. in Scarlatti's Sonata in B minor, Kk87, where there's a lot of hand-crossing.


In which edition do you see that? confused

Oops, mistake cry.

It was Kk27 in B minor, not Kk87.

(I blame Scarlatti for writing so many sonatas in the same keys.... wink ).


I never remember the numbers either grin

Re: Cross staff notes, how to play? [Re: ebonykawai] #2442735
07/19/15 02:22 PM
07/19/15 02:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 769
Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline OP
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Niagara Falls NY
Wow, this is wonderful information, thank you all SO MUCH!!!! Amazing what I'm learning from all of you!


Currently working at RCM grade 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin

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